nigama wrote:Hi Christian,
Phps you mean indian music can sound same as greek music, with different instruments? I can clarify my thoughts a little following the wedding raga thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2720&p=61757#p61757
There is uncounted research done on Greek music, some on the origins which can be traced back to the era of harps and lyres. Fortunately Greeks like Plato considered Dorian mode as fundamental harmony, which at present state of advanced arts can be considered playing from first string down in seven strings, called isartu in Old Babylonian as first mode, which looks similar to Kafi Thaat in Indian deshi but more precisely Nisadi Jati in marga music. So this way, marga music describing creation maybe viewed as the music that emerged from early civilization. Harps can be found in early times back to the Persian Gulf Region at Ur, Uruk and Eridu. The last town is called the first city in the Bible, named after Enos, the son of Kain, who is said to have been the father of those who built stringed instruments and flutes in the Bible, who brought them along with them. But Kain is also known as the son of a couple, who in vedic scriptures is refered to as Indara and Urjvasi, who are placed at the origin of music. Now, the oldest universal work that touched upon the Indian music after the advent of alphabetic writing there, Bharatas Natya Shastra is known from a manuscript not older than phps 200 years ago. Nobody can for sure say, what the original written from 2000 years ago really was. But one might compare to other cultures passed away to get some dating, so the cultural relations are important. What amazes is, that Natya Shastra claims marga music for drama i.g. poetry, dance and music all with but one common aesthetic factor. In music since Bharata this socalled rasa is the dominant ruler of the amsa, the tonic note of the marga melody. The ideal would therefore have been to colour the sound of the amsa by the defined jati melody in harmony with itself and with the same poetic rasa and the dance rasa in movements as laid down in the very same shastra. Bharata claimed that this philosophy had come down from the time of Indra, who was delighted in marga music alone. This makes sense if we believe that this philosophy originated in Mesopotamia or Asia Minor and was adopted in India, China or Europe in their particular ways. Even Flamenco dance could be considered belonging to this category. Still lot of research need to be done in Dorian mode, biblical music origins and marga music, but I am convinced there is hope to find a solution.
" I tried to post this, but get only access denied. So I send PM, phps you can add it to the thread?
I think in many previous posts, I have dealt with some of the questions/answers you pose…altogether I am preparing my research for a book, so I do not want to go into much detail before.
I feel what you call following Bhagavatam, Vishnu Purana is part of a Hare Krishna philosophy of quite late date. The danger of this philosophy is that it tries to give a rational for everything elsewhere unexplainable just to be very impressive.
Archaeology confirms that about 35000 years ago first bone flutes were excavated within the realm of socalled old european cave culture, together with artistic statues such as lionman or – woman, believed to be in a dance pose. Although there is consent that the flutes were pentatonic, I do not have any confirmation about the exact scale so as to compare to indian svaras. In indian mythology the lionman appears as Vishnu in the form of Narasimha, the flute as instruments of Krishna and it is general consent of scholars that Vishnu was known before as human being Indra. So, to base anything upon mythological indian history one has to discern fact from fiction and best leave wishful thinking on ist own.
Research in music can be manifold, one good excample is how
german-born Syrian Malek Jandali did it on utube, he composed upon an ancient melody from Ugarit after decades of scholarly research by others, see
It might take some years to read into the matter, but one will find out that the 3400 year old text of the melody keeps mentioning akkadian “nid quablim”, that is one of the Sa or seven string sets accepted as basis of the scales. Similarly the Indian jatis, from which the ragas may have derived are related to seven strings, maybe one day it will be realized that this composition may give a clue to what the jatis were like? Such utubes could be award winners and there is a lot of research to be done in this art field yet.
Another level is Psalms and Ragas, a quite amazing program for free download from
http://www.asram.org/texts/softEn.html (scroll down the page)
it brings at a mouseclick various ragas with similar tunes as Benedictine, Gregorian, greek rendered psalms.The origin of many psalms however can also be traced back in time to the same Ugarit, where had been stored the music mentioned in the utube above.
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