If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby ragamala » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:04 am

Surbaharplayer wrote:No... it wasn't directed at you personally :oops:


No harm done, I didn't take it that way!

Surbaharplayer wrote:My point is: get the info you can... it's scarce and valuable. Also: when the late Ust. Asad Ali Khan was asked what people should do who wanted to learn the veena his answer was: "Move to Europe". People in India didn't seem to have a sincere interest in the instrument. That's the reality we live in...


This is a very interesting comment and raises a lot more serious issues than what qualifications people have after their name (or before, in the case of Ustads and Pandits).

If this is an accurate assessment, this is of deep concern.

Best dealt with in a new topic. Which I'll open, with your permission.
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby nicneufeld » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:50 pm

Surbaharplayer wrote: (usually calling him Nikhilda...(barf...))


LOL! OK you have to help me out here! I started a thread on honorifics specifically asking for details on what is used when and in what contexts, so if there is an aspect of the -da suffix that is irritating or pretentious to use out of an intimate friendship context, lemme know! I've used the suffix basically because that's how other folks use it, and I err on the side of showing more respect than not showing enough (ie., trying to include Pandit and Ustad titles, etc)....basically only out of desire to not give offence, and because of simple respect for the masters, and trying to fit in with the Indian music subculture a bit! So maybe Nikhilda is a bit strong for me to use, given that while I respect him greatly, he's not my guru or anything.

These people for instance dismiss Skype beforehand (because it's modern technology and not the way the old masters taught).


Just FYI, but Ust. Imrat Khan now prefers Google video chat over Skype...the two way communication is better according to him. Same basic idea though!
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby Surbaharplayer » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:39 pm

nicneufeld wrote:
Surbaharplayer wrote: (usually calling him Nikhilda...(barf...))


LOL! OK you have to help me out here! I started a thread on honorifics specifically asking for details on what is used when and in what contexts, so if there is an aspect of the -da suffix that is irritating or pretentious to use out of an intimate friendship context, lemme know! I've used the suffix basically because that's how other folks use it, and I err on the side of showing more respect than not showing enough (ie., trying to include Pandit and Ustad titles, etc)....basically only out of desire to not give offence, and because of simple respect for the masters, and trying to fit in with the Indian music subculture a bit! So maybe Nikhilda is a bit strong for me to use, given that while I respect him greatly, he's not my guru or anything.

These people for instance dismiss Skype beforehand (because it's modern technology and not the way the old masters taught).


Just FYI, but Ust. Imrat Khan now prefers Google video chat over Skype...the two way communication is better according to him. Same basic idea though!


Regarding the Nikhil-da thing: I just feel that using that suffix for people who never met the man feels odd. A senior disciple of Ust. Z.M. Dagar, Pt. Pushparaj Koshti, is refered to by people who know him as Pushparaj-dada. Fine..but I would never call him like that. Just feels awkward. And the Nikhil-da is even worse in my book since the man is dead for what?...25 years?

But again..that's my personal view...

Regarding the Skype-thing; I know a lot teachers use Skype to stay in contact with their students. Right now I'm in the process of setting up a laptop for lessons with Bahauddin.... It's more that I got the view that certain westerners view it as not done. Their loss. I've seen Indian concerts where amplification was not used since it was not the tradition (Ust. Shujaat Khan in front of 200/300 people who were sitting on squeeky wooden chairs :lol: ).
I just got the feeling a lot of Westerners are still viewing ICM through rose coloured glasses. I'm a afraid the hippies did a lot of damage in that respect. :lol:
Last edited by Surbaharplayer on Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby cwroyds » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:49 pm

What would you suggest then?

Nikhil-ji
Nikhil
Mr. Banerjee
NB

Or do you just write out "Nikhil Banerjee" every time.
Nikhilda is easy as it denotes a level of respect.

I think I will start calling him Nikhil-babu, just to get on your nerves. :lol: (just kidding).
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby nicneufeld » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:17 am

I'm curious, why is he not denoted as a Pandit? I'm sure there is a good reason as I have never seen "Pandit Nikhil Banerjee" written anywhere, and of course there are people who take that title who do not approach his level of skill and inspiration, so I assume fairly confidently it is not that he is remotely unqualified for it. I take it he preferred not to?

Sorry for the aside. But that's precisely why I've been asking for clarity on this honorific thing, I've been using the -da suffix as an attempted honorific in the same manner as Pandit and Ustad, which seems not to be what the suffix means, so if there is a better way to show respect, even just using his normal name, I'm all for it...again, I'm just a Westerner trying to navigate the rather murky waters of Indian music without offending people or failing to show sufficient respect! Sometimes it can be quite the balance...either you are not respectful enough or you are too familiar.

I guess I could just say up front...Ravi Shankar, Vilayat Khan, Imrat Khan, Nikhil Banerjee, and any number of other masters...they are fantastic, I love their music, I respect them all greatly, and I try to learn what I can from each of them. That's my substitution for any name suffixes or honorifics that I might forget to include in future posts! :wink:
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby cwroyds » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:40 am

Actually, if you google "Pandit Nikhil Banerjee", there are plenty of people referring to him that way, including Deepak Raja.
At this point in history, I don't think anyone is going to argue with you if you want to refer to him as Pandit.
He is certain overshadows a great many musicians who go by "Pandit".

Nikhil Banerjee did not want to be called Pandit.
He asked to be called simply Mr. Banerjee.
He was a humble guy.
This is one of the things I like about him.
It was all about the music, and none of the bullshit.

These days it seems "Pandit" is used for anyone who can whistle a tune.

I suppose if you are being very formal you would refer to him as "Padmabhushan Nikhil Banerjee".
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby plectum » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:51 am

If you find using pandit/ustad/professor/vidusi cumbersome you can simply use the suffix -ji. This has the advantage that it is applicable for everybody. Bhimsenji, Kishoriji, Raviji, Vilayatji, Alauddinji even Shivji, Ganeshji etc are perfectly acceptable.

"-da" does not necessarily imply familiarity. You are perfectly okay to use it for people you have not met, or even for someone who has passed away.

Some people take the honorifics to an extreme level. I came across someone who refers to Aliakbar-ji and Annapurna-ji as "baba" (father) and "ma" (mother) respectively, which is a bit weird considering they were siblings.

cwroyds wrote:I suppose if you are being very formal you would refer to him as "Padmabhushan Nikhil Banerjee".


During the time of the Raj big landlords and important supporters of the regime used to get honorifics like Raybahadur, Raysaheb, Khansaheb etc. At the time of independence, when the new constitution was drafted, the landlord system, and these titles were done away with. Then when the civilian titles were instituted there was a huge uproar, as the opponents felt that these titles would be used as honorifics just as in the time of Raj. They were reassured that these were awards not titles, and would not be used with the name. Nowadays however these are used as honorifics and no one protests.
You know, music, art - these are not just little decorations to make life prettier. They're very deep necessities which people cannot live without. ~~ Pablo Picasso
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby block » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:44 am

And if the maestro is a catholic (not a muslim nor a hindu)?
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby fossesitar » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:12 am

I was always under the impression the "DA" is more a term of endearment than respect.
If so, it is more appropriate (or only appropriate) for those who knew and loved, to use.

Ustad-JI seems a little more formal to me, still affectionate but more respectful?? These
are only impressions from one who does not speak the lingo. "Khansahihib" (pronounced
Kan-sab) seems to cover all the bases at least in the muslim realm.....

As for Catholic....... hmmmm........ your eminence? Your holiness?? Or how's about plain
old "Mr." which seems to cover a lotta ground in the west as..... "Mr. Lombardi"

You could just call him "Coach" as many do BUT, he ain't your coach !! Mr. is better.

Doncha think??
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby Sitarfixer » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:08 pm

Amazing that this mega thread is still being spooled up. Following on with the new twist, the "ji", "da", "babu", "dada", "didi", "bita", "shonu","sahib" / / / / / I got a quick lesson from Madame Shankar "BOOM boom BOOM boom BOOM boom BOOM boom" . Panditji would prefer to be addressed as "Panditji" or "Raviji", I was told in very specific, exact terms. Works for me. That's the stuff I needed to know as it was quite awkward on my first few encounters at their house as to how to even say "Hi". I suppose that incident could be used as some sort of blueprint for this topic twist. I doubt that those affected, save a few would really put any weight on it at all. On the teaching topic, I still contend that if you can teach and someone asks you to, it is your responsibility to do so. Note the "can teach" qualification must include good material to teach. What the student does with that info is hopefully beneficial in some aspect.
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby fossesitar » Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:42 pm

Javohl Herr Tone-Meister !! "babu", "dada", "didi", "bita", "shonu","sahib" etc etc as I scrape the ground in obescience !!
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby Greg » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:13 pm

Good grief I'm amazed this thread is still going, I remember posting to it some months back now.... :o ..... :lol: ...... :wink:
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby trippy monkey » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:50 am

Greg
Has it changed your original views/attitudes at all?

Nick
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby Greg » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:29 pm

I'll let you know in a month or two after I've read it.... :lol:
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Re: If you're not an Ustad/Pandit... please don't teach

Postby Greg » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:56 pm

trippy monkey wrote:Greg
Has it changed your original views/attitudes at all?

Nick


Errrr...No.
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