WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

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WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby povster » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:47 pm

This is a continuation of this thread which is now locked.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12344

I left it up and locked for folks to read the suggestions, comments and criticisms brought up about the forum and how it is moderated. I locked it because it is no longer about Trippy but about the forums themselves. And we do not want an ongoing thread about the merits or failings of an individual user. The points, pro and con have been made. Trippy is free to do with his posts as he sees fit.

This is a Mod decision on my part.

to continue:

To address the suggestion we have real names and profiles: Unfortunately (or fortunately), this is not Facebook. Most importantly, what is to prevent someone from making up fake information? And how do we verify this information?

I actually closed my Facebook account because the spam and drek was becoming ridiculous. I created a fake Facebook account with a fake name and a free anonymous email address, unrelated to any of main main email addresses, just to check in on a few pages. If I can do that on FB anyone can do it here.

Now how does one go about actually implementing this into the message board system?

Wipe the entire user base and have everyone start from scratch?
Give a time frame for all users to create a profile and wipe the rest that don't?
I don't think you understand the magnitude of such an effort for what is essentially false security.
As far as grading posters? I have been on forums (am on one now with over 20,000 posts) that did away with it a few years ago because it turned into a popularity contest and was used against people.

Regarding an admonition I read in this thread to David that he has "a duty to protect the people who contribute the real stuff from attacks and arguments and pointless bickering." Actually, the mods have a duty to protect ANYONE from attacks. As far as "pointless bickering"? That is a very wide swathe to paint and would come down to the Mods' individual interpretation. And individual interpretation by the mods is a step or two away from a dystopian forum.

Moderation is the main tool. As I recently said, I and certainly David do not want this to become a FAHRENHEIT 451 forum. But on my part I will, and have many times, deleted posts designed to flame or attack other users and will continue to do so.

As David has said in the past, he is in a danged if you do and danged if you don't position. Deleting posts and even banning users has been met with accusations of "over-moderation" and posts that some see as inflammatory are met with cries of "why isn't this user banned or that post wiped?". Its a no-win scenario.

As far as old-timers, knowledge etc. this forum can be part of the learning process. Many many folks here were, at one time, a total newbie to ICM. I had never even heard it until 1973, when I was 23 years old. I have to wonder what my posts would have been like back then. I actually had the nerve to tell my teacher when I first started: "In 6 months I'll play better than you." Yes, we have a great laugh over that nowadays. And I respect him greatly for the way he handled that. He just nodded and went on with the lessons.

In retrospect the amount I did not know about ICM was staggering, and if I had an inkling of what it entailed I may never have pursued it. And I know I still have a tremendous amount to learn.

It is a cumulative thing. Those who have been around a long time have probably seen many hopefuls begin this music and, after a fairly short time, give it up in frustration because their progress was too slow or they figured they could just bang out a raga in a few weeks.

Those that remain and continue despite the frustrations and difficulties are a good part of what this forum is about. Yes, there can be questions or comments that seem silly or ignorant. Know what? Some of them are to thoose who already have the answer. But they are genuine enough to the asker. And sometimes I WILL see some of the old-timers make a chiding or mocking comment, assuming one should already know this, which is not supportive and can lead to eventual moderator deletion of posts in an ensuing ruckus.

Most of any forum's demeanor is up to the users, not to the Mods.
...Michael
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Panini - the official bread of ICM

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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby Hamletsghost » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:38 pm

:D Michael :D

I BOW to the master.
You have stated this the best of all...

Thanks for locking the Trippy thread - You're right - it had gone beyond The Tripster and become a witch hunt on all things wrong with the forum.
This is why I pointed at no individual - post - or thread with my admonitions - I spoke out of frustration & sadness.
What you have posted says everything I wanted to say & coudn't find the right words.
The spirit of my post of ALL of us being more zen & understanding in our interractions here is right there in your post.
When slighted do we just hammer back?
Or do we take the high road & stay perched on the razors edge?

The knee jerk reaction to this was "I didn't start it"
Let's ALL take a deep breath & think about that -
Are we 10 years old telling our parents why we knocked the (blank) out of the kid next door?
Or are we the crotchety ol' man down the street who won't give the kids their ball back when they knock it in our yard?
(I'm pretty crotchety sometime & pretty old)

Let's all start with a more enlightened approach - That's why we're here anyway........
PEACE THRU MUSIC
Larry Darrell LIVES!

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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby mahadev » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:46 pm

Oh come on povster, we have heard all this before. All these politically correct lame excuses.

You know why I am pissed off ? And why so may knowledgeable people have left ?
And why oh why are there so few INDIAN contributors ? And why are the AACM people not here ?

I will tell you. Because I and others who have spent decades studying ICM take their time to contribute. Some of us have studied in India, not in comfortable air conditioned America. Some of us have died. Of hunger, broken hearts and frustration. Some have collapsed under the sheer weight , the burden of having taken on this huge thing that is the sacred music of India and, in their own estimation, not living up to it.

Povster...you come here and you live in Calcutta or Benares for 10 or 20 years and then we talk. Or have you already done this ?
Then you know where I come from.
I have nothing to prove to anyone on this forum. Neither do the people who could potentially contribute real information. The people to whom I have to prove something are not on this forum.
Yesterday I was talking to a very well known musician here in Delhi, a household name in fact. You know what he said to me ? That forum, yes, I read it but I never write. It is dangerous. All kinds of people will come and argue with you.

Ok, back to the point, so we contribute only to see our posts disappear in this swamp, in this morass of endlessly repeating and often misleading information.
Have you noticed how the same topics come up again and again ?
David can't even be bothered to create a section of really useful threads like most specialist forums have.

This forum has a systemic problem. Always had. A problem which David must be aware of but can't be bothered about.Or what else am I to think ? It is the same old same old problem recurring at regular intervals.

So change it.
Hey, this is not facebook. Bios and credentials are far more difficult to fake here.
I don't get it.
Why can't this forum be a place where real people meet, with real faces and real names like in the real world ? Real personalities not fracking avatars ? Real people ?
I just don't get it.
As for reorganizing this forum. Big deal. A programming wiz can do it in day or two.

David ,
it's not that I don't appreciate what you do. Roll a big Havana, lean back and think of a solution. Maybe you will have a genius idea.

Why do I care ? At all ? Because I have spent my time which is valuable and what is more important, because I have made good friends here. And, you may not believe this, because I respect anyone who ventures into this difficult art.

Ok, that's it, had enough. Let's see.

Bye

:D
http://maxflury.com/

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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby povster » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:09 am

David HAS created a HUGE database of information. Have you never seen it? It is right here on the left marked Index. Browse through it. It does not look lazy to me.

http://chandrakantha.com/i_n_d_e_x.html

As for the rest, you have your opinion. What I said are not excuses or politically correct bleatings. And the fact something has been said before neither supports nor negates its veracity.

You seem to have some misconceptions, especially about programming, computer security, software engineering, cost issues, test cycles, downtime and compatibility issues to name a few.

I will say that one does not have to live in India for 20 or 30 years to understand death, hunger, broken hearts, frustration, tragedy, sickness, prejudice, fear, anger, frustration etc. with this music or in life itself.

PS - I do not have air conditioning. Even in Boston where it gets hot and humid in the summer (and freezing cold in the winter) I did not have air conditioning. Just a fan.
...Michael
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Panini - the official bread of ICM

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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby pbercker » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:27 am

povster wrote:Davis HAS created a HUGE database of information. Have you never seen it? It is right here on the left marked Index. Browse through it. It does not look lazy to me.

http://chandrakantha.com/i_n_d_e_x.html


I was about to point that out, but you beat me to it! I've returned to this index again and again and again and have learned a great deal from it. What I most like about it is the fact that David does not speak "ex cathedra", but instead meticulously documents and references everything he writes and, unlike many other websites, as the all important "works cited" page! (Coming from an academic background, this is very important to me.)


http://chandrakantha.com/articles/india ... cited.html



Pascal
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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby Kirya » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:20 am

The following are direct quotes of Don Juan Matus speaking to Carlos Castaneda as reported in his books and are taken verbatim. The emphasis is mine.

Self-importance is our greatest enemy. Think about it - what weakens us is feeling offended by the deeds and misdeeds of our fellowmen. Our self-importance requires that we spend most of our lives offended by someone.

Carlos Castaneda


Self-importance is not something simple and naive. On the one hand, it is the core of everything that is good in us, and on the other hand, the core of everything that is rotten. To get rid of the self-importance that is rotten requires a masterpiece of strategy.

In order to follow the path of knowledge one has to be very imaginative. In the path of knowledge nothing is as clear as we'd like it to be. Warriors fight self-importance as a matter of strategy, not principle.

Impeccability is nothing else but the proper use of energy. My statements have no inkling of morality. I've saved energy and that makes me impeccable. To understand this, you have to save enough energy yourself.

Warriors take strategic inventories. They list everything they do. Then they decide which of those things can be changed in order to allow themselves a respite, in terms of expending their energy.

The strategic inventory covers only behavioral patterns that are not essential to our survival and well-being.

In the strategic inventories of warriors, self-importance figures as the activity that consumes the greatest amount of energy, hence, their effort to eradicate it.

Warriors prepare themselves to be aware, and full awareness comes to them only when there is no more self-importance left in them. Only when they are nothing do they become everything.

Every effort should be made to eradicate self-importance from the lives of warriors. Without self-importance we are invulnerable.

Self-importance is not only the sorcerer's supreme enemy but the nemesis of mankind.

Most of our energy goes into upholding our importance. This is most obvious in our endless worry about the presentation of the self, about whether or not we are admired or liked or acknowledged. If we are capable of losing some of that importance, two extraordinary things happen to us. One, we free our energy from trying to maintain the illusory idea of our grandeur; and, two, we provide ourselves with enough energy to enter into the second attention to catch a glimpse of the actual grandeur of the universe.

Self-importance is not only the sorcerer's supreme enemy but the nemesis of mankind.

Don Juan to CC
Last edited by Kirya on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby povster » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:44 am

Isn't it so, Juancho?
It's just so, Gerancho.
...Michael
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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby david » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:52 pm

One will notice that I have been conspicuously absent here. Should anyone just be coming to these forums it is useful to restate the two rules of this forums.
1) No spam
2) No flamming

This is an open forum where anyone can speak their peace. It is not my job to pass judgment on the posters or the posts. I have faith in people and I have faith in your abilities to separate BS from substantial posts. I have faith in your abilities to have personal differences without resorting to flamming.

Now I leave it to all of you to prove that my faith is well founded.

Peace

David Courtney

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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby nicneufeld » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:02 pm

mahadev wrote:This forum has a systemic problem. Always had. A problem which David must be aware of but can't be bothered about.Or what else am I to think ? It is the same old same old problem recurring at regular intervals.


To proffer a humble counterpoint, despite our regular dust-ups and the occasional trolling, I have next to no complaints about the forum. There's no better place online that I know of to discuss ICM with [predominantly] like-minded folks. Perhaps the amount of time you have spent (and are spending?) in India, in the proverbial thick of it, surrounded by genuine ICM in its natural environs, would lessen your appreciation for the forum compared to someone like me, living in a place where (almost) no one I know has any clue or interest about ICM...this place is an oasis to folks like me. To someone like you, or the Indian musicians you mentioned, it doesn't offer so much, and is chiefly something you could contribute to, rather than gain from, so I can understand souring on it if your contributions are not seen to be appreciated (but of course, they are, very much so).

Is it perfect? Perhaps not, but no place is, and as many times as I've heard even just in the past three years or so how the forum is going to hell in a handbasket, we still seem to keep coming back and enjoying each other's company in banter/persiflage/good natured personal abuse. :D And I certainly have learned a great lot from you chaps.

Oh, and my handle is my actual name, but that has more to do with a lazy reluctance to devise anything creative than any intent to be above-board and transparent. :D

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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby Kirya » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:05 pm

Mahadev wrote:
You know why I am pissed off ? And why so may knowledgeable people have left ?
And why oh why are there so few INDIAN contributors ? And why are the AACM people not here ?


You are pissed off possibly because you think that what you know is better than what others know, or your self-importance rages without you being aware of it.

I am Indian (who grew up in India) and I am an occasional contributor, and I find this site useful for many things even though it is far from perfect and yeah it could be better organized. So what? "Search" seems to work for me and most others I think, and yes people do seem to ask the same questions over and over again because that is how it is perhaps with new people coming in regularly?

Really Sir? Are we not allowed to ask the same "dumb" questions again because you say so?

Alam Khan of AACM (Kalyan and some others from AACM) are regular contributors in the forum and Alam answers all kinds of questions on the sarod (even really "stupid" basic ones) without resorting to pompous self-righteousness.

Some more quotes for you and I to ponder:

The following are direct quotes of Don Juan Matus speaking to Carlos Castaneda as reported in his books and are taken verbatim. The emphasis is mine.

“As long as a man feels that he is the most important thing in the world, he cannot really appreciate the world around him. He is like a horse with blinders; all he sees is himself, apart from everything else.”
— Don Juan Matus

“The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity.”

"It’s not the people around you who are at fault, they cannot help themselves. The fault is with you, because you can help yourself, but you are bent on judging them, at a deep level of silence. Any idiot can judge. If you judge them, you will only get the worst out of them. All of us human beings are prisoners, and it is that prison that makes us act in such a miserable way. Your challenge is to take people as they are! Leave people alone.

You may not understand what I’m talking about. If you’re not conscious of your desire to judge them you are in even worse shape. This is the flaw of warrior-travelers when they begin to resume their journeys. They get cocky, out of hand.

— Don Juan Matus to CC, The Active Side of Infinity
Last edited by Kirya on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby pbercker » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:14 pm

nicneufeld wrote:
mahadev wrote:This forum has a systemic problem. Always had. A problem which David must be aware of but can't be bothered about.Or what else am I to think ? It is the same old same old problem recurring at regular intervals.


To proffer a humble counterpoint, despite our regular dust-ups and the occasional trolling, I have next to no complaints about the forum. There's no better place online that I know of to discuss ICM with [predominantly] like-minded folks. Perhaps the amount of time you have spent (and are spending?) in India, in the proverbial thick of it, surrounded by genuine ICM in its natural environs, would lessen your appreciation for the forum compared to someone like me, living in a place where (almost) no one I know has any clue or interest about ICM...this place is an oasis to folks like me.

Oh, and my handle is my actual name, but that has more to do with a lazy reluctance to devise anything creative than any intent to be above-board and transparent. :D


You took the words right out of my mouth! It's one thing to listen to ICM, read articles about ICM, and the like, but quite another to be able to interact (albeit remotely and with delayed reaction!) with like-minded folks when there is otherwise little or no opportunity for "live" interaction with like-minded folks, as there is not for me.



Btw, my name is Pascal Bercker and I approve of this message!
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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby Kirya » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:54 pm

The following are direct quotes of Don Juan Matus speaking to Carlos Castaneda as reported in his books and are taken verbatim. The emphasis is mine.



"You take yourself too seriously. You are too damn important in your own mind. That must be changed! You are so goddamn important that you feel justified to be annoyed with everything. You’re so damn important that you can afford to leave if things don’t go your way. I suppose you think that shows you have character. That’s nonsense!

You’re weak, and conceited! In the course of your life you have not ever finished anything because of that sense of disproportionate importance that you attach to yourself.


Self-importance is another thing that must be dropped, just like personal history. The world around us is very mysterious. It doesn’t yield its secrets easily. Now we are concerned with losing self-importance. As long as you feel that you are the most important thing in the world you cannot really appreciate the world around you. You are like a horse with blinders, all you see is yourself apart from everything else.


To help you lose self-importance talk to little plants. It doesn’t matter what you say to a plant, what’s important is the feeling of liking it, and treating it as an equal.”

Don Juan Matus; Journey to Ixtlan
Last edited by Kirya on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby nicneufeld » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:40 am

Why do I suddenly feel the need for a copita of amontillado and a paella? :D

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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby Sanjeeb » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:04 am

Just happened to see this thread this morning....
I am a little late in responding but here it is…

Everybody take it a little easy….. and things will hopefully resolve for the better.
Hopefully Trippy Monkey will be back soon.

I like some of the points raised to increase awareness of some things, but would reinstate, it is finally up to us individually to agree or not, and where we don’t, make your point and leave it at that, as povster, David and some others have pointed out.

I love the spirit of this forum the way it is, where people can speak out what they want, and am blessed to interact, share and learn here.

May I also add though there may be no easy way to tell, but if we were to know one day, I would not be surprised to learn that there may be many well established, famous artists, visiting here to pick up a thing or two.

Love and peace!
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Re: WHERE O WHERE HAS OUR FORUM GONE?

Postby Kirya » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:33 pm

Why do I suddenly feel the need for a copita of amontillado and a paella?


Actually Don Juan Matus who provided all the quotes I copied over is a Yaqui Indian Mexican Shaman who is the main character in the books of Carlos Castaneda. (A series of about 10 books)

He never drank anything but water so we might have to change our food reference here to "Mexican" water and tortilla and beans :)

In the journey of expanding awareness that is described in these books, which leads to frequent encounters with "infinity", Don Juan Matus points out repeatedly that "self-importance" and it's corollary "self-pity" are major obstacles to a warrior on the path of knowledge and prevents his encounter(s) with infinity.

I recommend the books as they are magical and amazing and yet full of pragmatic and non-dogmatic information about being a "man of knowledge".

We kind of have similarities to the Carlos stories in ICM too. If you are aware of the story of Tansen & Baiju Bawra and their teacher Swami Haridas. SH always chose remain largely anonymous and invisible (he was all about the music and nothing else) and Tansen's hubris and self-importance was shattered by BB who was a musician without any serious palace or social fame credentials as the story goes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiju_Bawra_%28film%29

Baiju remembers that when his father was killed, he was taking Baiju to Swami Haridas. He goes to see the Swami himself and asks for his guidance, informing him of his plan to take revenge against Tansen. Haridas tells Baiju that one must be in love to be a true musician, and thus Baiju must rid himself of all the hatred in his heart, but still gives him a vina and accepts him as his disciple.


Interestingly we also see a semblance of this in the forum where guys who have traveled to India a few times or stayed there for a few years, or sat in the same room with Ravi Shankar, Nikhil Banerjee or UVK a few times assume they have some special key that gives them "more" knowledge. Though of course it does matter a little bit, how you carry it forward matters more. India also has many "Ustads" who withheld knowledge to try to ensure that nobody would outclass or outplay them.

To me it seems "the music" will always be more important than the musicians, especially those musicians who need to tell you how much they know and how great they are. And the ones who claim elevated status based on brief proximity to an "artist" who uses a title like Ustad or Pandit are the ones that in my mind have the least to offer.

Allaudin Khan and Nikhil always talked about themselves being "Naad Yogis" rather than great artists as many others have and this has always resonated with me, but what do I know. A yogi never actually gets there, but they keep walking this path with a heart tirelessly because the path calls.

This music IMO is all about a journey into an unknown realm -- the deep inner space of human awareness where ragas lie waiting to come to life. I think we all (in this forum) share a love for that moment when we either witness or even better yet, bring a raga to life with our own playing. This quest is mystical (which means one cannot define it) and it is hard to make rules and regulations about this.

I realize that every time you/I think you/I know - you realize that you really don't, and really my opinions are not worth anymore than any other opinion stated in these forums. But then isn't that the wonderful thing about dealing with mysterious forces?

Anyway these are my random musings and not to be taken too seriously as I certainly don't - it is just my forum self at his worst.
Last edited by Kirya on Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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