Kinai Lal South Baksara

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RobMonty
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:09 pm

Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by RobMonty » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:31 pm

Sad to say this latest sitar from this shop is not anything like the first sitar quality I bought from them.

For one, I paid extra for the best wood... They sent me a partical board little tumba which is so heavy and basically a toy, it does nothing and my other makers little tumbas sing nice and loud.

The pegs where left so long that the case wont shut right at the main pegs, and the sitar barely fits in the case from the length of the side pegs and tarafs. They where all left so long its a job just to fit the sitar in the case. I have 3 other sitars and the pegs are about in inch shorter on all of them.

The bridge slides around and the sitar falls out of tune in a few mins, longer play and the bridge turns and the strings start to almost fall off the bridge.

As well as the peg work is minimal and not very good at all.

I am not very happy and since they take a long time to reply if they do, i figured maybe i should post a possible warning before people out of India actually think about purchasing from them.

My first sitar is just so nice, this is almost as if Bhargava children made it. :|

StVitus
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by StVitus » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:15 pm

I want to see photos of the tumba. Not because I don’t believe you, but because I just have to see something that absurd.

RobMonty
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by RobMonty » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:14 pm

I have an email to them and hope they will at least send a proper little tumba.

No idea why they would leave the pegs so long....

I can fix the bridge slide, but really, why do i have to fix it?
Paid good money for a pro sitar...
I could have Tony K redo the pegs but really, 18 pegs is a lot of work i already paid for...

Good sitar beyond that, I just really expected better. The first sitar from them is 100% perfect, still to this day its a bad ass super fine instrument.
I am, well, I am not sure how i feel..

It can be fixed, just really should not get this from a pro maker, eh?

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StVitus
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by StVitus » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:15 am

Wow. I can’t believe they thought you wouldn’t notice a particle board tumba.

Lars
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by Lars » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:17 am

That's a gourd actually, they slice them up in pieces and glue together. This allows them to use pieces if a gourd is partly rotten, etc. and they're harder to grow to full size in that climate for mass production. Then they use sawdust and glue and whatever else to coat it.
As far as Subasch (Kanai Lal & SONS) as a maker ~ "Famous boutique brands" have used him but it's always hit or miss. I also used to have him make some of our Srishti line but had to say goodbye a few years ago. Sometimes he'll give you a good instrument, other times you'll get a polished greenwood sitar with a neck that turns into a decorated chair arm. And the polish will almost always fall off after awhile, they mix water with rohlam as a base before polish. Then they're shellacked but the problem is the water wants to escape and causes the shellac to bubble and then crack. The last time I saw him he told me how there were only 2 good sitar makers left in Kolkata, him and Barun. I had a good laugh.... He mass produces stuff and if left to his own devices he'll grab whatever wood or even buy a body from the body farm, so pro maker I would say not. If you want one of his better instruments then best to order and then go there for final inspection. Subasch's fitting can be quite all right sometimes though so if the tone on your sitar is good then count your blessings.......

Lars
http://www.raincitymusic.com

RobMonty
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by RobMonty » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:18 pm

Thank you Lars. It sure is a heavy tumba and the pieces that come off look like particle board to me..
Seeing your experience, i trust that is is a gourd, but the glue/etc has made it 4 times heavier then my other one from Waseem Maner.
Waseem has been doing some great work (now that ive had a few units come in for friends) He may not be considered traditional or great, but i can say this, the dragon sitar he made for me is three times the sitar kinai lal and sons put out this time.
Yes the tone is good on the kinai and for the most part all can be fixed, I just think its crazy they did not cut the pegs down to fit the case nor did they do a great peg fitting this time. I can have Tony Karasek fix it, but ya know, Ive already paid someone i trusted to do a fine job.

The bridge sliding, i can rework that.

My first VK sitar from Kinai lal (put a huge wow on Tony K's Face) He was completly impressed and twice now he has seen it to say, there is nothing to make this sitar more better =)

This is why i went with Kinai lal again, only to find angry reply emails, pretty mean attitudes, and over all disgust if i contacted him about the build at all..

I could see the signs, but he already had the money.
I think he is getting older and has lost his empathy for others.

I could be wrong..

Spot on with the finish, VK sitar does have some checking but ya have to look for it. Its not coming off at all though.
Thanks the sitar gods there..

Being limited income, purchasing from you would have been nicer, yet it gets shipped twice in that process making it out of my range to pay (until now I say this) Next time I think I will just go with Rain City Music...

Blessings and Shukriya

RobMonty
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by RobMonty » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:44 pm

Luckily Aarons Music Service is a block away and I am friends with them for years. They are ex-gibson guitar employees and build guitars.
I hang there and have built a ukulele with their help. They had the proper Reamer for the main pegs and I redid the main two. It holds a tune now as well as I removed the bridge and wow was it totally not even close to being level. I put a little shim on it, the sound stayed the same mostly. May need to do a little jiwari for the chikari's which needed it from the get go anyhow.. I like a little more pop in mine.

So, all said and done I had to fix this myself.
However I can not probably fix all the pegs being too long.
The reamer required to do the (most) of the pegs is not the type they have at the shop though Ed who works there, master builder of guitars (he would not claim that) has a cello reamer set also which as long as its right, i can possibly work out the problems with the rest of the pegs.
I am not sure I will go as far as making them shorter. For the case to close, the two main pegs must be shortened. I may just pop the bone nipple out, sand down the lotus peg tips some and put the nipple back on.

Really stupid that I have to fix a sitar that was supposed to be one of the best makers as he claimed to say to me and others..


Time to put it to the real test, few hours of play and see if the bridge stays put.

Lars
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by Lars » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:18 am

RobMonty wrote:Thank you Lars. It sure is a heavy tumba and the pieces that come off look like particle board to me..
Seeing your experience, i trust that is is a gourd, but the glue/etc has made it 4 times heavier then my other one from Waseem Maner.
Waseem has been doing some great work (now that ive had a few units come in for friends) He may not be considered traditional or great, but i can say this, the dragon sitar he made for me is three times the sitar kinai lal and sons put out this time.
Yes the tone is good on the kinai and for the most part all can be fixed, I just think its crazy they did not cut the pegs down to fit the case nor did they do a great peg fitting this time. I can have Tony Karasek fix it, but ya know, Ive already paid someone i trusted to do a fine job.

The bridge sliding, i can rework that.

My first VK sitar from Kinai lal (put a huge wow on Tony K's Face) He was completly impressed and twice now he has seen it to say, there is nothing to make this sitar more better =)

This is why i went with Kinai lal again, only to find angry reply emails, pretty mean attitudes, and over all disgust if i contacted him about the build at all..

I could see the signs, but he already had the money.
I think he is getting older and has lost his empathy for others.

I could be wrong..

Spot on with the finish, VK sitar does have some checking but ya have to look for it. Its not coming off at all though.
Thanks the sitar gods there..

Being limited income, purchasing from you would have been nicer, yet it gets shipped twice in that process making it out of my range to pay (until now I say this) Next time I think I will just go with Rain City Music...

Blessings and Shukriya
Yes I'd agree, the better ones I saw were VK style and I know a number of them ended up with Rikhi Ram labels on them. He's only in his late 40's maybe, he probably just doesn't care enough. Next time just go there if you can and hope you get it fixed up. I've never heard of Waseem Maner.

Lars
http://www.raincitymusic.com

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rex@sitar.co.za
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by rex@sitar.co.za » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:31 pm

Lars wrote:The last time I saw him he told me how there were only 2 good sitar makers left in Kolkata, him and Barun. I had a good laugh....
.. the sad part is - are there actually any really good makers left??

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Sitarfixer
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by Sitarfixer » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:23 pm

Hey Rob ! Yoo sanda da pegs; I breaka yo face a ! ! ! Try this : Wrap a piece of #120 sand paper around the peg shaft of the peg you want to sit lower in the neck. A single wrap will do it to keep it more or less round ( no overlap of paper ). Insert the wrapped peg into its corresponding peg hole and twist. The paper reams out the peg hole with a better than average taper match. The tip side of the peg would need to be hand filed / sanded just a bit to insert itself that little bit deeper. Test the progress often. It works ! ! !

Lars
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by Lars » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:45 pm

rex@sitar.co.za wrote:
Lars wrote:The last time I saw him he told me how there were only 2 good sitar makers left in Kolkata, him and Barun. I had a good laugh....
.. the sad part is - are there actually any really good makers left??
There are good makers left, the problem is in the concept of what a good maker is. Every famous one has made duds, sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes a great ego develops and quality goes to hell, this is the case in this thread....So you'll find them coming in and out of fashion, I've gone through many people to arrive at the point I'm at now and am happy. But a perfect maker doesn't exist, the Western idea is based a lot on what they look like which has resulted in an abundance of furniture catering to the MOFO syndrome at the expense of sound quality. Getting a sitar without directly sitting with the maker in perfect condition is impossible, typically a player in India will order and then do the final fitting and setup in person to direct them as to how you want your jawari, frets, response, etc. Very few of the makers play well enough to work out the subtle kinks (I only know of 2) that can occur so without this final step getting a great instrument can become a challenge. Good fitting takes a generation to learn as well just by itself. It's important to go in person or rely on someone who knows how you want it and will setup accordingly.

Lars
http://www.raincitymusic.com

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Jojolefthishome
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by Jojolefthishome » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:50 am

Lars wrote:
rex@sitar.co.za wrote:
.. the sad part is - are there actually any really good makers left??
There are good makers left, the problem is in the concept of what a good maker is. Every famous one has made duds, sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes a great ego develops and quality goes to hell, this is the case in this thread....So you'll find them coming in and out of fashion, I've gone through many people to arrive at the point I'm at now and am happy. But a perfect maker doesn't exist, the Western idea is based a lot on what they look like which has resulted in an abundance of furniture catering to the MOFO syndrome at the expense of sound quality. Getting a sitar without directly sitting with the maker in perfect condition is impossible, typically a player in India will order and then do the final fitting and setup in person to direct them as to how you want your jawari, frets, response, etc. Very few of the makers play well enough to work out the subtle kinks (I only know of 2) that can occur so without this final step getting a great instrument can become a challenge. Good fitting takes a generation to learn as well just by itself. It's important to go in person or rely on someone who knows how you want it and will setup accordingly.

Lars
Or you could buy a sitar from Lars and not have to worry about it! 8) worth every penny...
Jay
"One good thing about music, when it hits you, you feel no pain" -Bob Marley

katyrow
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by katyrow » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:02 am

Jojolefthishome wrote:Or you could buy a sitar from Lars and not have to worry about it! 8) worth every penny...
Bravo! +100. :mrgreen:

RobMonty
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Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:09 pm

Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by RobMonty » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:26 pm

Ahh I Just found this reply. Umm the pegs are all... like every peg.... about 1 inch too long.
I used reamers lightly and a file on the peg as you showed me last time, this worked great for tuning purposes and it holds tune with out letting go now.

I did all the main pegs lightly, slowly, carefully.
Aarons has the proper taraf peg reamer also, but this would be a lot of work as all the pegs have to come out. For now I chalked them good and they function well. Id prefer to make them better of course.

I would imagine this is not as bad as it seems yet comparing it to my first sitar from them, its not even close to the set up quality this time.
It is a fine sitar, but I guess I got spoiled with the first arriving 100% perfect...


The VK sitar, you can fall down and barely touch the chikari and they are freaking perfect... this new one is like chunka chunk and sometimes a ching..


Rob
Last edited by RobMonty on Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RobMonty
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Re: Kinai Lal South Baksara

Post by RobMonty » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:14 pm

Much appreciated on your replies everyone. Luckily I have visited with Tony Karasek and do my best to pay attention and learn.
Ive built some guitars and ukulele so I am capable. Just knowing what is right and wrong is still somewhat guess work for me as a sitar is not anything like a guitar beyond patience is required to do the job right.....

One little bit at a time, lots of thinking, lots of comparing to other sitars I was able to bring the jiwari out more to my liking today.

When I can get to Tony, I will have em do his thing... He always does me right.

I am not going to try to tackle the peg lengths being too long on my own.
Jiwari is set very good now, still not exactly how i like it, but the chikari have a good response now.

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