mode delineation of ragas?

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jaysitar22
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mode delineation of ragas?

Post by jaysitar22 » Wed May 15, 2013 11:00 pm

Hello all!
I posted this many months ago on the sitar forum, without much success on finding out more of these concepts, the post is below, if anybody knows any more information about the "modes" of the ragas, (I highlighted them in blue) who Shripada Bandyopadhyaya was, or any other words of wisdom, please let me know, thanks!

I have a Sitar technique book called "Techniques of the Sitar," written by Shripad Bandyopadhyaya. He is the author of 10 books on Hindustani music, and according to his short bio in the book he is said to have studied with Ustad Allauddin Khan and S.N. Ratanjankar (noted vocalist).
In this book S.B. develops many ragas with detailed illustrations of the "twelve modes of the Saini Gharana"
1.Alap(Asthayi, Antara, Sanchari, Abhog) 2.Jod-Alap (bara-bari-ka-jor, lari-ka jor, and gamak-ka-jor, 3.Thonk jhala, 4.Jhala
5.Gat 6.Todas 7.Lari 8.Guthava 9.Lar-Guthava 10.Larlapetta 11.Kattar 12.Tar-paran
, now it seems to me that this is the old traditional way of presenting a complete raga. The definitons of all these are present in this book but due to my inexperience I do not understand the explanations given, can you all enlighten me on what your understandings are of these modes and their proper execution?
"If a man follows the mind given him and makes it his teacher, then who can be without a teacher?"
“To be truly ignorant, be content with your own knowledge.”
-Chuang Tzu

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musicslug
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Re: mode delineation of ragas?

Post by musicslug » Thu May 16, 2013 6:14 pm

it's possible the lack of responses to your earlier post is because your request is pretty involved; what you're asking is pretty much what a teacher would help you understand, over a long period of study. the topic has been much-discussed here, but I think it's hard to overemphasize: you really need a teacher, one-on-one, to learn Hindustani Classical music.

'asthayi', for example, refers to the opening phrases in the exposition of a raga - one shows the notes used, the relationships between them, perhaps even a 'characteristic phrase' or three. but knowing that's what an asthayi is, conceptually, won't get you very far without a teacher who can show you how to do it. after all, what we're talking about here is learning how to improvise, in a musical language that's unlike anything in the west. and, adding to the challenge, every gharana (lineage) has its own take on how to develop a raga, so you need to pick your teacher carefully - generally it's suggested that you listen to as much ICM as you can, figure out which artist resonates with you, and find a teacher conversant in that artist's gharana. good luck!
Daniel

jaysitar22
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Re: mode delineation of ragas?

Post by jaysitar22 » Fri May 17, 2013 2:00 am

Hi,
I totally agree with you, that one cannot learn through books alone, I also do have a teacher. I feel that most of these modes are either blended today or not known by names, on scientific lines, now I understand that this is a western way of thinking and that just by knowing about how the modes are performed does not mean that you know how to actually play them. But these topics greatly interest me and there is definitely a lack of teachers willing to teach these ideas because they are a bit archaic, if the teacher is even in the know of how to properly play the mode in question. I am hoping that since this is a forum people might be willing to share what they know of these topics.

From what I understand of these (paraphrased from "Techniques of Sitar")
ALAP
Asthayi is generally started from the dominant or predominant note, but sometimes begins from middle sa and develops to high sa, after the latter is reached the alap sam is played. ( I have found that most artists descend into the lower register at the beginning of alap.)
Antara is from either ga, ma, or pa and its limit is up to high P, then descending gradually to middle sa, after which the alap sam is played.
Sanchari is in the low and middle registers, after this is completed the artist goes back to middle sa and plays the alap sam.
Abhog is the tautology of Antara. (Abhog confuses me because I have heard that Abhog utilizes all three registers.)
I believe that these angas are taken from the dhrupad song structure.
JODALAP
Barabari-ka-jod is played after the vilambit section in madhylaya. The artist uses the used scattered notes of the previous sections and begins to put them in to a regular order. Only the boles da and ra are to be used. ( My interpretation of this is that this is basically another alap but in madhylaya with a regular pulse. I also do not know the equivalent bols for da and ra for veena.)
Lari-ka-jod- "as in a garland of flowers of different shades are knitted together, so is larijod the various combinations of notes are set into tunes on rhythm without any gap in between rhythm and sound. Only bols da and ra are to be used, complex bols are not permitted. (the definition of this anga confuses me a bit, if anyone can shed any light on this anga, or maybe a portion of recordings that portrays this ...)
Gamak-ka-jod where gamak is frequently used along with sapat and phirat-ki-taans of the Asthayi, Antara, and Sanchari vernas. (THis is a good definition, but if anybody knows of any recordings displaying this...)
Thonk jhala This mode is evolved from ravab. The bole phraseology from Pakhawaj or Mrdanga are played on the main string, while simple jhala is played as usual. ( I have heard many different ways of playing this anga, and there probabply is not one right way, but does anybody know how this anga is played on dhrupad ravab?) There are examples in the book that I will write down, if anybody even answers any of these questions or is interested.)
These are the only angas I can wrap my head around at this time, the others, Guthava, Larguthava, Larlapet, Tar-paran, Lari, Kattar are too confusing for me to write about them. I found a great English translation of the alap portion from Sangeet Ratankar where they classifly alap in a similar way with the said modes, i.e.
Vilambit
Madh
Drut
Jhala
Thok
Lari
Larguthava
Larlapet
Paran
Saath
Dhuyaa
Maarhaa
Paramaatha (extinct)

If anybody knows of any recordings of displaying a raga in this way, or any of the angas, could you please share it. I apologize if this post comes of as pretentious or anything like that, I am just trying to find out more about this older style of playing.
Thanks,
Jason
"If a man follows the mind given him and makes it his teacher, then who can be without a teacher?"
“To be truly ignorant, be content with your own knowledge.”
-Chuang Tzu

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musicslug
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Re: mode delineation of ragas?

Post by musicslug » Fri May 17, 2013 4:37 am

hi Jason,

you might find Ritwik Sanyal's book, 'Dhrupad', helpful; he goes into great detail regarding the structure of Dhrupad, particularly sung. expensive book, but you should be able to get if from the library, probably as an inter-library loan.

dha, at least as I was taught on vina, refers to the 'strong' stroke, flexing middle, ring and pinky together (striking only with middle finger though), and ra is the weaker stroke, using only the index finger.

jhalas: if 'C' = chikari stroke, and D + R refer to dha/ra strokes:
CDRR = toonk jhala
DCCC = 'regular' jhala

my teacher wasn't too clear about this, but I think abhogi might be where you encompass an entire octave (perhaps the source of you thinking it involves 'all three registers'?). on vina this is done on the main string after you've developed the raga enough to allow a full octave below the highest note (i.e.the note you're 'showing'). e.g.: if you've just finished showing/developing the P above middle Sa, you'd then play a phrase that leads up to the higher P, then slides down to low P, and follow that with its opposite, a phrase that leads into a slide from low to high P.

I'm less sure about the two types of jod, but it sounds like what's being described is the progression from what might be called 'notes with pulse' to 'rudimentary melodies', which feels intuitively right to me; the advent of jod introduces a relaxed pulse, but with the passage of time, the player starts to find melodies. just guessing though...

hope this is helpful!

Daniel

jaysitar22
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Re: mode delineation of ragas?

Post by jaysitar22 » Sat May 18, 2013 3:55 pm

Hi those 12 stages were actually from Bhartiya Sangeet Kosh not Sangeet Ratnakar, here's the link to the translation
http://camitava.0catch.com/articles/stages.htm

These stages are very similar to the ones listed in "Techniques of Sitar"
"If a man follows the mind given him and makes it his teacher, then who can be without a teacher?"
“To be truly ignorant, be content with your own knowledge.”
-Chuang Tzu

jaysitar22
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:47 am

Re: mode delineation of ragas?

Post by jaysitar22 » Fri May 29, 2015 8:04 pm

hi all, Here are examples of guthava from the Bandyopadhyaya "Techniques of Sitar". The book says that this technique is used with fast gat, and that the anuvadi svaras are made attractive. Also, that guthava means to sew or knit, and that guthava is akin to Jor. I don't know exactly how these tans are to be used, but they work great as paltas. If anyone knows more about the author of this book or this technique, can you please let me know?
2 notes .1.SR 2. RS 3.SSR 4.RRS 5.SRRS 6.RSSR or play as one phrase
3 notes: 1.SRG,SRG,SRSG,RGRS,GRS 2.RGS,RGS,RGRS,GRGS,RGS 3.GRS,GRS,GRGS,RGSR,SRG
4 notes
simple forms
1.SRGmGR,GmRG,SRmGRS 2.SRmGRS,SGRmGR,SRGm
3.SGRmGR,GmRmGR,GmRS 4.RSGRmG,RSGRmG,mGRS
complex forms
1.SGRm,SRmG,RGmG,SRGm 2.SRS,GRG,mGRG,mGRGRS
3.RSRGRG,mGm,GmRGSRS 4.SRSG,SmGR,RGSR,mGRS
compound forms
1.SRG,SRG,SRSG,SmGmRS 2.GRS,GRS,GRGS,RmGRGS
3.RGm,RGm,RGRm,GmRGRS 4.RSRGmGRG,mRGSmGRS
5.SRG,SRG,SRSG,RmGRSR,SRmGRGRS,GRmG,GSRS
6.GRS,GRS,GRGSRG,GSRS,GRS,GmGRGS,mGRS,GRS
7.RGm,RGm,RGRmGm,RGSR,mGRG,GRSR,SmGR,SGRS
8.mGR,GRS,RmG,SGR,SRGR,SRmG,RSRGSR,mGRGRS
"If a man follows the mind given him and makes it his teacher, then who can be without a teacher?"
“To be truly ignorant, be content with your own knowledge.”
-Chuang Tzu

producito
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Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:37 pm

Re: mode delineation of ragas?

Post by producito » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:51 am

Hi All ¡

Does anyone knows how to get the book of Ritwik Sanyal 'Dhrupad'
interesting post

namaskar

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musicslug
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Re: mode delineation of ragas?

Post by musicslug » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:51 pm

have you tried libraries? a lot of institutions have this book. in the US, most libraries can borrow books from universities.

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