Changing Sa's revisited

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Surbaharplayer
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Changing Sa's revisited

Postby Surbaharplayer » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:32 pm

A couple of months ago there was some discussion going on regarding the changing of the Sa-note. Today Bahauddin Dagar gave a lecture at the Rotterdam Conservatorium and he talked about this subject. I've uploaded 2 videos on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSzNIK4ISzI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE0-N9F1WOg

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ragamala
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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby ragamala » Thu Apr 01, 2010 3:42 pm

I just wish I had the internet connection to listen to this... wow --- 7 sas...

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby CheesecakeTomek » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:01 pm

wow, thank you for sharing this. a very fascinating and beautiful demonstration.

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby panchamkauns » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:09 am

Thanks a million, that was the most interesting thing I’ve seen in quite some time! I wonder how many of these sas are actually used — all seven? It doesn’t feel like I’ve heard that!

His family and their students have a fantastic amount of knowledge about an approach to ragas that is very rare today. I really think it should be documented. It is hugely interesting. I knew there was an older classification of ragas and raginis, but I had no idea there was a thought-out system to it. He makes it sound pretty scientific!

6 ragas x 6 wives x 8 sons plus grandsons and granddaughters ... is this at all documented anywhere?
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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby ragamala » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:35 pm

panchamkauns wrote:Thanks a million, that was the most interesting thing I’ve seen in quite some time! I wonder how many of these sas are actually used — all seven? It doesn’t feel like I’ve heard that!

His family and their students have a fantastic amount of knowledge about an approach to ragas that is very rare today. I really think it should be documented. It is hugely interesting. I knew there was an older classification of ragas and raginis, but I had no idea there was a thought-out system to it. He makes it sound pretty scientific!

6 ragas x 6 wives x 8 sons plus grandsons and granddaughters ... is this at all documented anywhere?


You might find this of some interest

http://www.dollsofindia.com/raga_ragini.htm


In the Ragamala Painting book of Klaus Ebeling, a pretty definitive guide to the art form, the main classification (the "Painters' System") describes the following ragas and raginis-

BHAIRAV Bhairavi Nat Malasri Patmanjari Lalit
MALKOS Gauri Khambhavati Malavi Ramakali Gunakali
HINDOL Bilaval Todi Desakh Devgandhar Madhumadhavi
DIPAK Dhanasri Vasant Kanada Bairadi Desvarati/Purvi
MEGH Gujari Gormalar Kakubha Vibhasa Bangal
SRI Pancham Kamod Setmalar Asavari Kedar

Personally I can find little linking some of the ragas with their 5 "wives".

The Raga Guide's plates follow in the main the classification of one particular ragamala painting set, which has some differences from the above, but also quotes the Painters' System. However - see
http://www.wyastone.co.uk/nrl/world/raga/intro3.html
where the book's introduction also quotes another set and source from the 17th century, although it says the ragas/raginis idea was around from about the 14th century in the musical literature (as opposed to the painting sources).

So I think these classifications are somewhat fluid. I have no idea where the Dagars' thoughts fit in here, as I'm unable to play the video.

See also David's quote on
http://chandrakantha.com/articles/india ... agini.html

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby panchamkauns » Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:26 pm

What’s interesting about hearing it from the Dagar family is they seem to be clear about why such and such is a ragini of so and so. Perhaps other people are as well, but I’ve never seen it explained. (I don’t know Klaus Ebeling, so forgive me if he is an Indian classical musician on par with the Dagar family.) With such reasoning, the system wouldn’t be fluid and not just a piece of colourful nostalgia but have its own internal logic.

Being of course a child of pandit Bhatkhande myself (I suspect most of us are), I find this fascinating.
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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby princessjesusbopeep » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:12 am

Ok since all swars have 7shades if using say the 1st sa would the rest be the 1st too? And with raag familys is he sayin that each family gets a dif sa andor set of intonation?

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby musicslug » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:04 am

princessjesusbopeep:

after watching the video and thinking it over, I puzzled over that too and (tentatively) concluded that:

- the tanpura is still set to the 'absolute' (unaltered) sa
- the other raga notes are played as they should be, relative to the absolute sa (not the altered sa - if it is a raga where the sa is altered)
- in other words, he's just saying that sa can be flatted or sharp, just like the other raga notes

because otherwise, if you're just shifting the sa in sync with all the other notes, you haven't really done anything...

thoughts, anyone?

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby ragamala » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:16 am

panchamkauns wrote:What’s interesting about hearing it from the Dagar family is they seem to be clear about why such and such is a ragini of so and so. Perhaps other people are as well, but I’ve never seen it explained. (I don’t know Klaus Ebeling, so forgive me if he is an Indian classical musician on par with the Dagar family.) With such reasoning, the system wouldn’t be fluid and not just a piece of colourful nostalgia but have its own internal logic.

Being of course a child of pandit Bhatkhande myself (I suspect most of us are), I find this fascinating.


Apologies if you think I was going off-topic by relating references to classification of ragas/raginis in ragamala painting, which can appear to have dubious links to the music itself.

It is frustrating for me not to be able to play these videos, as this is also a topic in which I have considerable interest, with regard to the painting as well as the music. As you might have seen I was also earlier trying to get a grasp (with minimal success) on the original topic of the shifting sa, which never had a satisfactory conclusion, and nowhere earlier was suggested a full "set" of microtones of sa.

Is there any description either in the video or elsewhere of the Dagar's own version of ragas/raginis which allows comparison with the painting systems? I have not seen reference to this at all in any of the books on dhrupad I have come across.

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby CheesecakeTomek » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:47 am

musicslug wrote:princessjesusbopeep:

after watching the video and thinking it over, I puzzled over that too and (tentatively) concluded that:

- the tanpura is still set to the 'absolute' (unaltered) sa
- the other raga notes are played as they should be, relative to the absolute sa (not the altered sa - if it is a raga where the sa is altered)
- in other words, he's just saying that sa can be flatted or sharp, just like the other raga notes

because otherwise, if you're just shifting the sa in sync with all the other notes, you haven't really done anything...

thoughts, anyone?


This is what I have been thinking as well. I have created a couple of alternate possibilities in my head, but each time I try to type one out, I confuse myself and conclude that it is too complicated to be correct. Anyone that knows for sure care to toss a hint?

-Tomek

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby musicslug » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:52 am

panchamkauns:

in the video, Bahauddin explains the Dagarbani take on sa - that it, like the other notes, can be flatted or sharp. the 'system' is that, as the day progresses, the sa gradually becomes sharper - e.g. in todi (AM raga), sa is one microtone (out of 7) up from the lowest.

he doesn't discuss the painting system at all.

I don't know if this is helpful or not.

like yourself, in 10 years of studying Dhrupad, I've never come across any use of the paintings. on the contrary, Uday Bhawalkar said that he felt that, in capable hands, any raga can evoke all the rasas. I'm not sure that necessarily makes the paintings irrelevant, but it seems like a move away from the specificity of the paintings.

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby ragamala » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:19 am

I had the impression from panchamkauns's post that Bahauddin Dagar had addressed the issue of ragas and raginis in the video. Apologies if not, in which case I have introduced a red herring. I was initially replying to supply some info (not just to panchamkauns who I am sure is well versed) on what I knew about the ragas/ragini system, which in my case is almost exclusively through my interest in ragamala painting (hence my nick). Painters for centuries linked raga and old texts in a visual form, and for centuries this has become almost inextricably linked with, and I think is relevant to any discussion on, the raga/ragini systems.

Ragamala paintings do not, in general, address directly the rasa of a raga, I think.

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby ragamala » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:17 am

Re how changing sa works in practice

If anyone hasn't read the earlier main topic it was -

On Sa being different depending on raga

Unfortunately, in that topic we went backwards and forwards over some of the questions raised here - was the tanpura tuned to the "fixed" sa or was it partly tuned to the variable sa - were the other notes dependent on being "overtones" of the new sa (in which case what's the point? as musicslug says) or related to the basic tanpura sa... etc etc. The confusion was we seemed to get different answers from different sources. At times I thought I had it in my grasp, then it eluded me again..... My brain grew weary... I had really hoped it would be crystal clear from Bahauddin's video..... seems not :(

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby musicslug » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:25 pm

ragamala -

without pretending to understand fully Bahauddin's demo - he moves quickly, going back and forth between explanation and demonstration - my sense is:

- other raga-ragini systems have been criticized because even though the 'related' ragas use the same notes, there actually are differences between how those notes are intoned in the ragas (i.e. two related ragas will use different pas)

- in this system, all the related ragas do in fact use the same variants of all of the shared notes.

- my sense is that this would mean that the related ragas would have to share the same 'prahar' (time of day), since his system, at least regarding sa, involves the sa getting higher as the day progresses

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Re: Changing Sa's revisited

Postby jaan e kharabat » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:50 am

musicslug wrote:- in this system, all the related ragas do in fact use the same variants of all of the shared notes.

- my sense is that this would mean that the related ragas would have to share the same 'prahar' (time of day), since his system, at least regarding sa, involves the sa getting higher as the day progresses


Ustad Sarahang had provided an interesting extension to this theory in a TV interview that's up on youtube , stating that the six Ragas also have designated months and seasons in which they should be played. It goes something like this:

Bhairav - Libra & Scorpio (i.e. first two months of Autumn)
Malkauns - Aquarius & Pisces (i.e. last two months of Winter)
Shree - Sagittarius & Capricorn (i.e. late Autumn/early Winter)
Megh - Leo & Virgo (i.e. last two months of Summer)
Hindol - Aries & Taurus (i.e. first two months of Spring)
Deepak - Gemini & Cancer (i.e. late Spring/early Summer)
If there are just ''six tones'' in an octave [sic] then why have frets for tones that don't exist?


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