A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

All matters relating to the Dhrupad, except those covered by the other boards. This also includes Seni Rabab, Sursringar or any other instrument when played in a dhrupad style.

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yussef ali k
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A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by yussef ali k » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:57 am

Hi All.
Would like to learn about differences in string Gage and Materials as in standard use (as much as possible) so as to compare the surbahar 'against' the Bin/Rudra Vina.
Thank you in advance.

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povster
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by povster » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:36 am

On my Khandarbani style vin I use:

Bajtar - steel 0.46mm (0.018 inches)
Joditar and laraj - bronze 0.56mm (0.022 inches)
Pancham - bronze 0.725mm (0.028 inches)
Kharaj - flatwound tanpura string 1.2mm (0.047 inches)
High chikari - steel 0.254mm (0.01 inches)
Low chikari - 0.305mm (0.012 inches)
...Michael
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Surbaharplayer
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by Surbaharplayer » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:45 am

On my Kanai Lal Dagar veena (G# tuning)

0,45 mm steel (Baj)
0,75 mm bronze (Jod)
0,95 mm bronze (pancham)
1,20 mm bronze (kharaj)
0,55 mm bronze (laraj)

chikaris (all Sa)
all 0.30 steel (3x)


On my Kanai Lal surbahars (G# tuning)

0,37 mm steel (Baj)
0,55 mm bronze (jod)
0,70 mm bronze (pancham)
0,93 mm bronze (kharaj)

chikaris (all sa)
0,25 steel
0,30 steel 2x

yussef ali k
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by yussef ali k » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:01 pm

Hi, all.
Thank You both very much for the details.
Remco, thanks also for the tuning notes (I should've ask 4 it myself), so Povster, excuse me for asking for that one and the scale length, too.

Interesting: the rudravina (which has a scale length closer to that of the sitar) is tuned to a note closer or same as the surb, which string length is much bigger (hence the gauge difference - correct?).
Have fun.

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Surbaharplayer
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by Surbaharplayer » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:56 pm

The veena is a whole different beast compared to the surb. The tension is much stiffer. I always had the tendency to overshoot my meends on the surbahar. With the stiffer playingtension, my intonation on the veena seems a lot more accurate.

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povster
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by povster » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:11 pm

Yusef, my vin is tuned to G.

Again, it is Khandarbani style as opposed to Dagarbani. The scale length from the front of the bridge to the nut is 36" (915mm). From the back of the bridge to the nut it is a titch more than 38"" (966mm).

A shot of my vin below.
Attachments
myvn.jpg
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...Michael
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Panini - the official bread of ICM

yussef ali k
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by yussef ali k » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:35 pm

Hi. Thank You both.
Povster,
Nice bit of woodwork: playable sculpture. So have you kept those gauges, now that you went down to Sa=F?

Remco,
You're right - I always thought the bin was closer to the sitar, tensionwise. Surb strings feel somewhat slacker, different meend-control.

(To both): ever heard of anyone reversing string order on a bin/RVina ?

Have fun.

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povster
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by povster » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:09 pm

Thanks yusef. I have kept the same gauges. They work well enough but, as I say, the main string is a bit more twngy now so I am attending to jawari to round it out. If I went to thicker gauges I would be defeating the reason to go to a lower tuning: to reduce hand tension.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ever heard of anyone reversing string order on a bin/RVina". Compared to sitar/surb, the vin has strings in the reverse order, with the main playing string closest to the player and the kharaf furthest. This is due to the fret width and flatness. If it were strung like a sitar you would not have much room for longer mirs.

This string arrangements also accounts for the three finger technique. It would be extremely difficult to use a sitar style da/ra type stroke with the main string in the position. Thus da and ra are created with downward strokes using the index and middle fingers. (I understand Dagarbani sometimes uses more than just the middle/index finger when stroking?)
...Michael
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Panini - the official bread of ICM

Nick B
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by Nick B » Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:40 am

Any one got any thoughts on the best strings for a D# tuned vina? I have been using indian strings but find that the lower sa gets chewed up quite quickly. I was wondering whether round wound ones might work better than the solid copper ones.

Also, anyone have any thoughts of string vendors?

Any thoughts much appreciated.

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musicslug
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by musicslug » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:32 pm

hi Nick,

there could be issues with using a wound string - it might damage the surface of the bridge because of its texture. (is there anyone out there who's had a wound kharaj for an extended amount of playing that can comment on this?)

other than that, I'd try phosphor bronze. I imagine you'd have to use a heavier gauge than normal, since a normal gauge will be more slack as a result of being at a lower pitch, but I'm not sure since I'm not familiar with your instrument (the usual upper range for kharaj is .050"). it seems that the way to go about it would be to experiment; you ought to be able to pull a meend on the kharaj re fret to ni (fret width allowing...). I'd think that the heaviest gauge you can get that will allow that meend would be your best bet; in my experience, the stiffer the tension, the more accurate the meends. that, of course, means you're finding the sweet spot giving you the maximum accuracy with the least possible finger misery.

all that being said, you have a special problem in that kharaj jawari is the trickiest (which is, I believe, why so many people end up using wound kharaj), meaning you'll have to fight that fight with every gauge test, by which I mean you'll have to try a gauge, take some time (weeks at least) to tweak the jawari - do a bit, play for several days before changing it, then tweak as needed... - until it's right, as in 'no rattling sound, smooth timbral transition to the other strings, etc.

fortepiano.com is a good source

good luck!

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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by povster » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:21 am

I've always had the flat wound kharaj. Basically the pitch is so low and the tension soft enough that I have seen no issues with the bridge being impacted. As opposed to the round wound, the flat wound is remarkably smooth.
...Michael
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Panini - the official bread of ICM

Nick B
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Re: A/B Strings : Surbahar/ R.Vina-Bin

Post by Nick B » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:10 am

Thanks both for your thoughts! Now to put into action..... :D

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