I'm fairly new to Indian Classical Music

[Lukecash12]

I've been a concert pianist, guitarist, composer, musicologist, professor, critic, and obsessive listener of music for 2 and a half decades now. But I haven't studied nearly enough Carnatic or Hindustani music yet.

So, if it wouldn't be entirely too much trouble, would anyone be willing to generalize the whole of these categories before we go on to the specifics? I have quite a few questions concerning music theory, boundaries, rhythmic device, and effects brought out of the different instruments in Classical Indian music.

Has anyone attempted to make any atonal Indian music? Are there different periods and genres in it? I'm mainly familiar with the Raga, and hopefully will submit myself to the teachings of a Guru in the near future.

Edit: Also, has any method been developed as of yet so that people can notate quarter tone music? Are there any Sitar Teachers around Manteca, CA?

[cwroyds]

Hi Lukecash12,

Glad you are interested in Indian Classical Music, but ICM is a really deep and complex subject.
Your best bet is to read about it.
There are many books and there are articles on the web explaining ICM.
Read to get a basic knowledge and then come back and ask specific questions that you have.
This is a much easier way to get what you are looking for.
No one is going to be able to adequately lay it out for you with enough detail to make it worth doing here in the forum.
And if they can they will be typing for days.
Maybe some other forumites can suggest some books that are good.

You might find the ones at Ali Akbar School useful.
http://www.aacm.org/shop/theory_books.html

There is also a new DVD that is really great at explaining ICM.
It has tons of famous musicians explaining all aspects of this music.
http://www.ragaunveiled.com/home.htm

Check out the trailer here:
http://www.ragaunveiled.com/raga_unveiled_trailer.htm

Of course if a forumite wants to try explaning ICM in this thread, type away.

[mhamlin]

I second what cwroyds here said but will also recommend a book called "The Raga-s of Northern Indian Music" by Alain Danielou which will help satisfy your musicologist tendencies

[Lukecash12]

I appreciate it, and I'll get back to you when I can. But, as for now, what is it exactly that distinguishes one Raga from another? I already know that each omits a certain note or uses a different scale progression Arohana/Avorohana, but what about the microtone, notes slides, other subtleties that set each apart?

What exactly makes a piece represent Shringara (romantic and erotic), Hasya (humorous), Karuna (pathetic), Raudra (anger), Veera (heroic), Bhayanaka (fearful), Vibhatsa (disgustful), Adbhuta (amazement), or Shanta (peaceful)?

What are some examples of all the different Shrutis, Gamakas, and Andolans one normally hears? And how much individualism is commonly permitted in the improvisations (I'm sure westerners have different ideas of scale and mode progressions than the folks in the Shankara Orchestra)?

There are up to 108 beats in a cycle, but do you have any examples of a raga that actually employs such a pattern? Is each cycle the Indian Equivalent of a measure in Western Notation? Or is it divided?

What exactly is the thumri/dhun section of a Raga?

Is the sitar very similar (when it comes to conditioning, mode improvisation skills, fretting, and plucking) to playing the classical guitar (I've got performance degrees with the Classical Guitar, Piano, Cello, Violin, and French Horn)? If so, how does one go about finding a Guru?

[John]

The musical differences between Raags has far more to do with chalan (skeletal phraseology) than the aroh/avaroh. I'm no expert, but I can recommend reading some of Sri Rajan Parrikar's web-based articles (just take some of his 'opinions' with a pinch of salt); a great book by Sri Deepak Raja 'Hindustani Music: A Tradition in Transition' as well as his excellent blog - he gives, in my humble opinion, very refreshing, 21st century perspectives on the current state of the art; also, again in my humble opinion, the essential 'The Raga Guide: A survey of 74 Hindustani Ragas'. This is a fantastic book & 4 CD set.
Answers to most, if not all of your questions can be found in these books
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), western impatience and ICM do not mix. There is no quick & easy method of understanding, but it is a MONUMENTAL help that there are people like Sri Parrikar and Raja in the world.

[Lukecash12]

The musical differences between Raags has far more to do with chalan (skeletal phraseology) than the aroh/avaroh. I'm no expert, but I can recommend reading some of Sri Rajan Parrikar's web-based articles (just take some of his 'opinions' with a pinch of salt); a great book by Sri Deepak Raja 'Hindustani Music: A Tradition in Transition' as well as his excellent blog - he gives, in my humble opinion, very refreshing, 21st century perspectives on the current state of the art; also, again in my humble opinion, the essential 'The Raga Guide: A survey of 74 Hindustani Ragas'. This is a fantastic book & 4 CD set.
Answers to most, if not all of your questions can be found in these books
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective), western impatience and ICM do not mix. There is no quick & easy method of understanding, but it is a MONUMENTAL help that there are people like Sri Parrikar and Raja in the world.

That's a fantastic. I'm a slave to God and his Word and Art, not the other way around. I'll be sure to look up the references you gave me, and appreciate very much the help.

[cwroyds]

You asked the following:
"Is the sitar very similar (when it comes to conditioning, mode improvisation skills, fretting, and plucking) to playing the classical guitar (I've got performance degrees with the Classical Guitar, Piano, Cello, Violin, and French Horn)? If so, how does one go about finding a Guru?"

I played guitar for 30 years before I started playing sitar and there are some similarities, but not really.
When you first start it is a benefit that you are used to fretting with the left hand and plucking with the right, but each of these things are actually very different on the sitar.
You would think it would be more similar than it is.
The sitar strings are much higher from the frets and fretting on the arched frets is very different than on guitar.
On guitar the fretboard supports your finger as it presses the string, but on sitar it is like a high wire act.
Your finger rests on the string in thin air.

Your guitar fingering knowledge goes straight out the window on sitar.
On sitar you fret most notes with your index finger.
You only use the second finger at the uppermost note of a phrase.
You index finger is used like a slide on guitar, but you actually have to fret each note.
This is very difficult to get the hang of even with guitar experience.
You have to play sapat taans (long full fretboard scales) over and over and over to get the hang of each raga.
Even the great players do this to keep up accuracy and stamina.
Guitar is like riding a bike. I can pick up a guitar after a year and still play.
You will find that if you dont play sitar for a couple of weeks you loose a lot of ability that you have to work to get back.
In the end the sitar left hand is completely different to guitar technique.

For the right hand it does help to have the facility of a guitar right hand at first.
BUT the technique is actually in no way similar.
On sitar you have a Mizrab on your index finger.
You use the whole hand to strike the string.
The downstroke is called a Da stroke. The upstroke is called a Ra stroke.
These strokes are done by the opening and closing of your fist.
You can watch videos of sitarists to see this technique.

In the slow Alaap section on a raga you do use a stroke that is very similar to a guitar rest stroke.
You strike through the string to rest on the string below.

Most guitarists think they will be able to just pick up the sitar and jam out.
It is not the case.
It is a totally different thing.
The most striking difference is that for the most part you play a sitar in a linear horizontal way.
I mean that most of what you play on a sitar happens on the first string.
You play melodies going up the fretboard on the one string.
On guitar you can play vertically across strings.
This is not easy to do on the sitar.

Also the guitar and sitar are not the same type of instrument.
Guitar is a melody, harmony, chordal, orchestral instrument.
The sitar is simply a melody instrument.
Its role is similar to a single note melody instrument like the saxophone or flute.
Conceptually very different.

Hope that helps.

As for finding a teacher, where do you live?
There are quite a few ways to find a teacher.
This forum has a teacher list that you can look through.
If you state where you are from a forumite may be able to suggest a teacher for you too.

[Lukecash12]

I live in Manteca, California. Hopefully, there are one or two gurus around.

Actually, the Sitar sounds like an awful lot of fun (personally, I don't find practice mind numbing at all). It's good that at least the finger strength conditioning from the guitar and piano will help me learn the sitar. Repetitive scales? Bring it on! But no disrespect to any Sitar masters out there It's just as bad as it was trying to learn Alkan's Symphony for Solo Piano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwd_dMyM6gs

[cwroyds]

You should definitely try the sitar.
It is a incredibly satisfying instrument.
The description I gave above was not meant to discourage you.
It is a hard instrument to learn, but it is totally worth it.

If you are in Manteca, California, you are within an hour of a lot of sitarists.
You could just go to the Ali Akbar College of Music in San Rafael.
There are other teachers in and around San Francisco.
I am sure there are some bay area forumites who might have suggestions.

[Lukecash12]

Also, to give a little back for the help I've received here: http://www.youtube.com/user/Lukecash12

Enjoy

[cwroyds]

I love Segovia.
I saw him play when I was 11.
I remember it took him about ten minutes to waddle out to the bench in the middle of the stage.
He was VERY old.
BUT when he sat down and put his fingers to the guitar he became 40 years younger.
He blew me away.
He ended the concert with a Paganini piece that ripped the top of my head off.
What a great musician.

Thanks for the post.

[Lukecash12]

If you like that, than look under the play lists on my channel. Tons of music for everyone to enjoy.

[panchamkauns]

What is it exactly that distinguishes one Raga from another? I already know that each omits a certain note or uses a different scale progression Arohana/Avorohana, but what about the microtone, notes slides, other subtleties that set each apart?

Think of a raga as a set of unwritten rules that may govern any aspect of melody. Scale, ornamentation of individual notes, phraseology, every little detail. Please please please bear in mind that this is not a constructed tradition, it’s a real tradition, meaning: different schools, different areas, different musicians may not have the exact same ideas about the same raga. You can’t strictly codify these rules. The only way to learn ragas, as a listener, is through practise: naturally, reading about them helps, but you need to listen to different ragas a lot to get the hang of them.

(To many ragas are also attached other ideas about how to approach the material: is it suitable for khyal, is it suitable for thumri, is it suitable for the female voice, is it suitable for fast tempo and so on.)

What exactly makes a piece represent Shringara (romantic and erotic), Hasya (humorous), Karuna (pathetic), Raudra (anger), Veera (heroic), Bhayanaka (fearful), Vibhatsa (disgustful), Adbhuta (amazement), or Shanta (peaceful)?

Don’t look at this as something that can be definitely represented in the music ... see it as something for the musician to aim for with the performance.

What are some examples of all the different shrutis, gamakas, and andolans one normally hears? And how much individualism is commonly permitted in the improvisations (I'm sure westerners have different ideas of scale and mode progressions than the folks in the Shankara Orchestra)?

Sorry, I don’t understand these questions.

There are up to 108 beats in a cycle, but do you have any examples of a raga that actually employs such a pattern? Is each cycle the Indian Equivalent of a measure in Western Notation? Or is it divided?

What exactly is the thumri/dhun section of a raga?

At this stage in your education, I think it’s time to stop using ”raga” this way. There is no raga that employs a particular rhythm, and there is no raga that has sections. Thumri is a genre of music, a dhun is a folk song. You wouldn’t call anything in European music a ”section of B minor”, even if it’s a section of a particular symphony in B minor. Likewise, the thumri and dhun can be sections of a particular performance of a raga ...

As for the rhytms: there is no way to say what’s the equivalent of an Indian rhythmic cycle in European notation. Music theory is all man-made and there is no global governing body to say what’s the equivalent of what. But sure the cycles are subdivded. Rupak tal, which is seven beats, is divided into 3+2+2. Teental is sixteen beats divided into 4+4+4+4. A European way to think about this might be 4/4, but at a very slow tempo this cycle is more like 4 bars of 4/4. It doesn’t really matter.

Just like in traditional European music, no one uses ridiculously long or complicated rhythms like 108 beats, except perhaps as a spectacle or if some musician is extremely interested in rhythm. They’re basically not more than theory.

[Mulamoodan]

What are some examples of all the different Shrutis, Gamakas, and Andolans one normally hears?

I think you are looking for this
http://www.itcsra.org/alankar/alankar.html

Actually this site is very good source for practical theory.