Midi Keyboard to study ICM

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edumister
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Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 4:13 am

Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby edumister » Fri May 03, 2013 4:34 am

Hi I just discover the forum in a google binge about ICM and I already think is just what I needed. I study jazz piano and percurssion, and I'm very interested in expand my knowledge to the Indian melodic approach.
I have a MIDI Keyboard, and I plan to study ICM with it using a technique similar to a harmonium, using my left and to control a pitch bend wheel (which can be programmed to range from cents to octaves)
The defaut tuning in Logic is equal tempered, what change should who make to turn it more "Indianish"? :D Or is okay to leave it equal tempered as long as I control on the pitch wheel?

What exercises do who recommend for my to start, considering the fact that I cannot afford a sitar and have to traing with a midi keyboard :roll:

I also have a plug-in (Battery, from Native Instruments) in with you can progamm and equalize every individual key with a diferent sound, and I was planning to program 1 middle key with a syahi sample, two surrounding keys with maidan samples, 2 for kinnar and 2 for gajara; in both hands.
So, is any tabla player here who think is a legit way of practice? And if so can you give me exercises to start?

Thank you in advance,
Edu :)

trippy monkey
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby trippy monkey » Fri May 03, 2013 12:49 pm

Get yourself some good grounding by listening to lots of good artists in all genres of ICM such as sitars etc & vocal recordings.

Nick

edumister
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby edumister » Fri May 03, 2013 3:39 pm

Yeah, without a doubt the most important I'm also planning to do a trip to India after the summer but besides what can I do for now?
I have ear training and a pretty good relative pitch, what minds me the most is the micro tons.
Can I play ragas with the pitch bend wheel programmed for 50 cents (half a western semi-tone)?

trippy monkey
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby trippy monkey » Fri May 03, 2013 6:35 pm

You have to be very careful as this wheel is nowhere near as sensitive as the human hand & you have to know which parts of the srutis, those little bits between all the main 12 notes, to use for which ragas. It goes beyond just going beyoing on it.

That would sound like when a guitarist gets on a sitar, the fingers go all the place & we ALWAYS get that boyoyoyoyoying sound. :wink: :roll:

Nick
Last edited by trippy monkey on Thu May 16, 2013 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

edumister
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby edumister » Fri May 03, 2013 11:09 pm

Very interesting can you elaborate a lit more trippymonkey?
What are you saying that's wrong of the (hipotetical) guitarrist approach on a sitar?

trippy monkey
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby trippy monkey » Fri May 03, 2013 11:23 pm

If you listen to lots of really good high quality ICM from big name artists you'll hear the kind of embellishments we call gamaks or types of decorations we use in the music to give it dimension & dynamics. It's not a flat music or combination of notes in the same way, say western music, whatever that entails, uses.
ICM seems to use all those little bits in between the 12 notes far more than any other music I've ever listened to.
I've heard this wheel used before in a weak imitation of ICM. The player/keyboarder has no real knowledge of the music he's imitating & so it all sounds vaguely 'oriental' to most people & awful to ICM purists.
A keyboard cannot just suddenly start playing 'interval' music. It takes a bit of time to learn a new language so anything attempted early on will just be a pale copy with no real depth.
Then again it really depends on what the artist wants.

What do YOU want? If I may ask.

Nick

edumister
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby edumister » Wed May 08, 2013 11:30 pm

Nick, thanks for you awnser I feel you on that!
I'm currently playing simple ragas and trying to sing them spotless before even starting do add shruttis, let's see how it goes?
Well, I'm a electronic music producer and it seems to me that I can use much knowledge from the ICM to use in electronica, melody wise.
One more question Nick, in western music the bassline (usually played by bass or the lower keys of a piano) follows the roots or 5th of a chord; does a drone have the quality of a "bassline" in ICM? What are the diferences and similarities?

Thanks in advance :wink:

trippy monkey
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby trippy monkey » Wed May 08, 2013 11:43 pm

Do you mean a drone that's played from the 5th of the raga as a tanpura very often has the raga's 5th as its first or second string? IF it has a 5th, that is.
You can most certainly play bass lines alongside the main melody as long as it's in keeping with the raga.

Nick

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Kirya
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby Kirya » Fri May 10, 2013 9:05 pm

I agree that you should listen to as much as you can first so you have some kind of gut feel for the special kinds if melodic ornamentation of ICM-- there is tons in Youtube now so it is very easy -- here are some of my favorites

Vocals: Amir Khan, Kishori Amonkar, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, Bhimsen, Aswini Bhide

Instrumental: Nikhil Banerjee, Vilayat Khan, Ravi Shankar, Chaurasia, Ali Akbar Khan, Amjad Ali

It might be useful to also read through and understand what some of key melodic ornamentations are e.g. andolan, meend, gamak, krintan, khatka, nyasa

There is some info here:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10261

Though quite honestly I think the possibility of doing these things on a piano are pretty slim to none. You may wish to listen to Shivkumar Sharma on Santoor as that is kind of tiny baby piano and see what is possible when you cannot bend notes the way you need to.

You should understand that ICM in general holds the voice up as the prefect and most ideal instrument and most instruments try and mimic the voice
Kirya
Los Angeles, CA

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nicneufeld
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby nicneufeld » Wed May 15, 2013 5:20 pm

Having monkeyed with pitch bend wheels over the years, I'm not a great keyboard player...strike that, I'm not a keyboard player full-stop...but it would seem very difficult to achieve. Until moving on to a more traditional (or at least more naturally adaptable to ICM) instrument, I would recommend learning vocal. The instrument is free of charge, and many will say (with reasonable justification) that there is no more proper and traditional instrument for Hindustani music than the voice. You can learn the raags that way. Trying to learn them by playing on a keyboard seems like you would be trying to learn through an extra layer of abstraction, with limited success in achieving all the subtleties of the music. So if I were in the same position, I'd get a nice tanpura loop in a key that works for you and start learning Yaman or some other raag with just voice.

David Fahrner
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Re: Midi Keyboard to study ICM

Postby David Fahrner » Wed May 22, 2013 9:53 pm

edumister wrote:...in western music the bassline (usually played by bass or the lower keys of a piano) follows the roots or 5th of a chord; does a drone have the quality of a "bassline" in ICM? What are the diferences and similarities?


The background "drone" provided by the tanpura doesn't really have much to do with Western bass lines; it's higher-pitched and more of a continuous background reference for ICM's monophonic melody line...good Western bass lines are far more than root / 5th, they provide countermelody in a lower register, and rhythm too (ref: Paul McCartney, James Jamerson, and virtually any jazz bassist)...I saw Anoushka Shankar's fusion (?) group a couple of years ago, and was impressed that she didn't have a bassist; it made the music sound a lot more Indian to me...

df
David Fahrner
Terrebonne, Oregon


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