About raga Jaijaiwanti...

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foretdebambou
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About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by foretdebambou » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:20 pm

Hello, my second post on this forum already :D hope I get as much help as yesterday (well I hope I get more actually)?

So I have this amazing recording of raga Jaijaiwanti by Ud. Bismillah Khan, I think this is one of the recordings in all my music collection that moves me most, in the sense that it brings forth so many emotions when I play it, things happen I can't describe, I think it alters my state of mind in a very strong way.

So I would like to know what is the mood (rasa ?) of this raga, because to me it could be shringara, karuna, adbhuta or shanta, maybe I am totally wrong so if someone knows...
Also what is the time ? morning ? evening ? I know about the controversies, and I definitly like to listen this recording around sunset but what is it traditionnally ?
And also what is the instrument answering the shehnai ?

Thank you for any help, a peaceful evening to all of you :)

trippy monkey
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by trippy monkey » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:14 pm

Hi again
To be frank, whatever rasa/mood you get from a Raga is 'right' although there are specific ones for specific ragas too.
So I wouldn't worry too much about it, if I were you!!! 8)

Nick

foretdebambou
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by foretdebambou » Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:58 pm

Thank you Nick ! I was not worried, just curious about the traditional mood of this raga, just to see if I get the right impression. Of course I understand it is not like exact science (don't believe there such thing exists anyway :wink: )

goljawari
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by goljawari » Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:53 am

It's important to recognize that there are many different opinions about the concept of rasa, times of day, season, color, etc
On one hand, there isn't a "right" answer to your question. If you are looking for an "answer" to your feelings, the "The Raga Guide" would be a good place to turn. BTW - to many, these ways of thinking about the music aren't necessary....
Best of luck
GJW

vishonly
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by vishonly » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:10 am

Hi,
About the time of play: Traditionally this is a late evening raga, http://www.itcsra.org/sra_others_samay_index.html
About the mood : Though we try to find the mood of the raga it completely depends on how that raga is played, its tal and instrument also. very often you will come across one raga conveying sad and happy emotions as well. What you feel after listening will be right in this case. I hope this answers.
Cheers,
Vishal
Vishal

trippy monkey
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by trippy monkey » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:53 pm

So very true re the comments here.
I went with my teacher to see his guruji, Usatd Shahid PArvez in Maihar, about 300km from Varanasi where we were staying. It was the annual 2 day Ustad Allauddin Khan Fetival.

Also on the programme was trio of Indian guitar, sitar &, I think, flute. They were playing alap in that most wonderfully evocative evening raga Malkauns. I mentioned to my teacher, after we had to leave before the trio had finished, that there seemed to be something a bit 'wrong' with the performance but I couldn't put my finger quite on it.
He said they were 'only' playing it in devotional fashion or Rasa. AHA!!!!!! THAT was it. It had only ONE rasa according to the trio & this is what made it a bit boring, playing it a slng as they did.
Now Malkauns HAS, indeed, got the Bakthi or devotional aspect & certainly in alap, it also has Veer rasa or heroism, a masculine trait. This can depend on the dynamics of the group & how they interact.
Have a look on youtube or somewhere similar to see Jugalbandhis or duets & see how they both interact & 'work' AROUND each other.

Nick

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musicslug
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by musicslug » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:18 pm

I heard Uday Bhawalkar (Dhrupad singer) that he believes all rasas can be produced by any raga (if you're good enough...).

perhaps the important point to be made is the idea that, when properly played, ragas do evoke mood. while some things, like intonation, are clearly factors in this phenomenon, identifying the how and why is kind of a 'morning after' game and opinions will differ (e.g. did it fail because it was the 'wrong' time of day?) - it's usually pretty obvious when it's present.

trippy monkey
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by trippy monkey » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:24 am

I'd like to hear Pt Uday make Raga Bhupali sound sad & depressed?!!?!?

I would've thought THAT was only possible because one was a BAD artist & not a great one!?!?!? :wink:

Nick

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musicslug
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by musicslug » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:45 pm

after he made the comment about all rasas being possible in any raga, he added that he himself could only create 2 or 3 - the ability to create all of them was, in his opinion, something only a truly great artist could achieve.

Daniel

trippy monkey
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by trippy monkey » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:22 am

Do we, in fact, know of ANYONE at all that is or HAS been capable of this?

Even the great Tansen himself never boasted this as far as I know!

Nick

Christianamr
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by Christianamr » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:50 am

I am trying to get more insights into the properties of the different forms of Jaijaiwanti , namely its 2 principal incarnations .

Parrikar :
This raga comes in two versions, the Des-anga Jaijaivanti and the (mistakenly called) Bageshree-anga Jaijaivanti. The former type is dominant and hence will be taken up for discussion of the lakshanas.

Two special sancharis give Jaijaivanti away: S N’ S D’ n’ (G)R…
A small variation on the above is sometimes observed. As a sidelight, it is interesting to note that an appropriate graha bhedam on this cluster yields intonationally and scalically a seminal phrase of Raga Hameer: P m P G M (N)D.

P’ (G)R…
This leap from mandra pancham to rishab is a Jaijaivanti marker.

The Des influence, with its special approach to and attack on rishab, is characteristic of the raga’s structure. The rishab lords it over as the following tonal sentences illustrate:

R G M P N S”, R” n D P D M G R
N’ S R G M G R, R P M G R

Variations of these may prevail. Needless to say, it is not possible to capture every nuance and detail on paper. Almost always the above phrases are concluded with another Jaijaivanti artifact: R g R S. The komal gandhar has no independent existence and is always sandwiched between rishabs. Some versions of Jaijaivanti drop komal gandhar completely (S.N. Ratanjankar has written a composition for this type).

The heroic role awarded to rishab will be apparent as soon as we set up the audio buffet. Jaijaivanti carries chhayas of two other ragas besides Des, namely, Gaud (S, R G M) and Bilaval (P D G P M G etc).

The Bageshree-anga Jaijaivanti and the Des-anga Jaijaivanti differ primarily in their uttaranga launch. The Bageshree-anga Jaijaivanti takes off via G M D n S” and sometimes also via G M D N S”. The Bageshree label is a misnomer – the justification advanced is that the chalan, if not the notes, follows a Bageshree-like contour. Pandit Ramashreya Jha “Ramrang” makes a compelling case that it is in fact Raga Gara (not Bageshree) that furnishes the basis for this type of Jaijaivanti. We go straight to Ramrang‘s briefing.
So he says there are 2 basic forms : Desh-anga and Bageshree-anga , while he sees the second as a misnomer .

I can´t comment on whether this is true or not , since this way above my perception , but I have found this page that calls the second form Kafi-anga :

http://swarmusic.com/raga_detail.php?ragaID=1109
http://swarmusic.com/raga_detail.php?ragaID=1108
Des Ang Jaijaiwanti is more popular than the Kafi Ang.
Jaijaiwanti (Des Ang)Thaat Khamaj
Aaroha N-S-R-G-M-P-N-S'
Avroha S'-n-D-P-M-G-R-N'-S-D'-n'-R
Pakad R-G-M-P-D-G-M-R-G-N'-S-D'-n'-R
Thaat Kafi
Aaroha S-R-G-M-P-M-G-M-P-N-S'
Avroha S'-n-D-P-M-G-R-g-R-S
Pakad R-g-R-S,N'-S-D'-n'-R
I find this differentiation more easy than the one given by Parrikar . Parrikar´s explanations might be suitable for more sophisticated rasikas , but the one by the swarmusic-site offers some very plain differentiations , which work better for me :
- Komal ga is only used in Kafi-ang .
- Shuddha Ni is more prominent in Desh-ang
- A part of the pakkad of Desh-ang which is not included in the Kafi-ang Pakad , reminds me of some songs : R-G-M-P-D-G-M-R-G ...

PS : Swarganga has almost identical infos for both versions . It says explicitely that Desh-ang ( calling it aprachalit ) has no komal ga .
But then it differs saying that the more common version is the Bageshree-ang .... :roll:

2nd PS : OceanoR offers 3 versions :

- Gara-anga
Jayajayvanti(Gara anga) =JayjayvantiNata(With G only)
The Raga is similar to Raga Jayjayvanti except that Komal Gandhar -g- is not used. Other phrases of Jayjayvanti are used, such as, 'D'n R-S, P->R are used.
I see this as a contradiction , because one would expect that Gara-ang would have 2 ga´s ... No sound-file .

- " plain " Jaijaiwanti
Avaroha (Descent)- S'' n D P D M R g R S
Pakada (Distinctive tonal phrases)- RgRS, 'n'D'P R
Sounds like the Kafi-ang from the swarmusic-site , but he puts it in khamaj thaat ....

- Jayajayvanti_Desanga
No written info apart form Khamaj thaat and sampoorn-shadav , but the soundfile by Pt Jasraj uses only shuddh Ga .
सहस्रनाम ततुलयम राम नाम वरानने |
Sahasranāma tat tulyam Rāma nāma Varānane .

chittadwara
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by chittadwara » Tue May 06, 2014 2:16 pm

"I'd like to hear Pt Uday make Raga Bhupali sound sad & depressed?!!?!?

I would've thought THAT was only possible because one was a BAD artist & not a great one!?!?!?

Nick"

@Nick - I had shared the same opinion, but was pleased to be corrected. This has indeed been acheived. See the song composed by Ghulam Mohammad - Zindagi Dene Wale Sun (O life Giver, listen). For me, the purpose of a raga isn't so much to evoke a predetermined rasa or mood - its about the artist and what he chooses to paint on the canvas with a particular set of colours. ICM is an art, not an examination that's marked by how well one evokes a predetermined set of emotions. Not a performing artist, but this is what I feel.

trippy monkey
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Re: About raga Jaijaiwanti...

Post by trippy monkey » Tue May 06, 2014 4:29 pm

No NOT predetermined set of rasas but I feel it's not the spirit of ICM to try to invoke ALL rasas in ALL ragas. For me that defeats the aim of ICM.

Can anyone here evoke a feeling of heroism or valour in, say, raag Bhupali?
The notes create the mood when arranged in a particular way, THAT is the beauty of ICM or most musics IMO. Even when just running up & down the scale of a raga indifferently cannot produce ALL rasas!!

We must remember when we go to a concert, we're not going to hear a particular raga, we nearly always don't know until the artist tells us anyway, we go to see & hear a fave artist or a newcomer etc.

Nick

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