recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

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stringtester
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Location: Sweden

Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by stringtester » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:23 am

What do you think aboute the extra board I described?
Maybe something like that can help her playing?

martin spaink
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Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by martin spaink » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:26 am

Theoretically the idea is good, but I don't think I'll ever want to put it into practice!

stringtester
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Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by stringtester » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:27 am

Why not? If it works. Well I can undrerstand the skepsis to put new things to old traditionall
instruments. But theese days there is allready a lot of new things on the instruments.The
important thing is to not destroy the traditionall sound. I think it´s god if we can make this
difficult playing instrument more easy to play.
I think I make a prototype and come with a report later.

stringtester
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Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by stringtester » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:45 pm

I have now built the extra board I wrote aboute before Dr.Kashyaps postreply.
I took a piece of oakwood around 1cm broad and filed it to a angle.Very thin and flated in one end.And gradually thicker to the other end.I placed a thin white plate of bonelike material upon
it.It´s a material used for inlaid wood.Pollished the surface and placed it under and beside the string with just a few spots of glue.
Then I started to play. The spot on the nail where the string touch is now a few mm under the
cuticle.
I let the extra board ends a bit over the high Pa playingpostion.
It doesn´t do anything to the sound and doesn´t look to bad I think.
In fact it´s more easy to play now.
But of corse I am skeptical to put new things to old traditional instruments.Well, I play
with it for while and then I will see if I let it be there.
Peace,
Martin2

martin spaink
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Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by martin spaink » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:14 pm

Hi Martin,
Do I understand correctly that you have a rather high-standing bridge on your sarangi, so that you went through the trouble of making this separate fingerboard? It runs only under the top Sa string? Since you wnet through all the trouble, would you regale us with a picture of it?
greetings, martin (the other)

stringtester
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Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by stringtester » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:03 pm

Yes, I have a rather high standing bridge on my sarangi. The separate board starts at the
Ma playing-position. And goes up to a bit over the high Pa playing-postion. The white plate
wich cover it goes to the Aad.

Anyway I have removed it because after while it suddenly came some noise from it.

Instead I raised up the Aad us Dr.Kashyap described it.
I built an extra wood-packing and fixed it under the Aad with a few spots of glue. The extra
wood-packing is around 6mm. high. And the string came up around 16mm. over the finger-
board. That´s so high so I now must play with curticles instead the nails.

Wow! This was a realy good thing for the sound. Both the volume and the respons to the bow
is now much better. I became so excited so I forgot to protect my skin. It started to bleed
from the curticles.
A small problem is that the Aad leaning forward a bit. Maybe the wood-packing should be
more broad.
Thank you very much Dr.Kashyap for that good advice.

Martin2

peeceebee
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Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by peeceebee » Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:06 pm

There is a factor that is an issue related obliquely to all those raised here regarding the tone vs action issue that I think is relevant.

Of course the sharper the angle a string makes over the bridge the louder it will be, but also the more the skin will dampen the sustain of the string by absorbing vibrations and the more uneven resonances in the instrument will come out, in opposition to the body carrying more of the string tension relative to the skin that occurs when the angle is producing less downpressure on the skin as is the case with lower action. This later condition results in a relatively quieter tone, but also more even, more sensitive response to the bow on some instruments.

Of course in any real-world case it is a tradeoff between playability, tone, volume, etc., but a lower action or at least string angle over the bridge isn't simply a negative.

I play with my nails, and having small hands set up the action on the high SA string quite low, which on all my sarangis helps enormously with a more even responsiveness on the first string, and especially minimizing uneven resonances which tend to happen at certain frequencies.

This is not to contradict Martin's point and advice about repairing warping of the trueness of alignment on an older instrument due to tension or any other points raised in this thread, but to include the factor that a simplistic "higher action over the bridge is better" point of view has other aspects...

martin spaink
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Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by martin spaink » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:14 am

Hi PCB,

Well you're absolutely right that we should never look at one aspect only when setting up these fidgety instruments but insist on seeing the larger picture. To make it all so more interesting is that sarangi set-ups can be very different, I' ve seen instruments with big, highstanding bridges and the otherway around. If things were only as simple as with a viola da gamba for instance, where it is an easy thing to experiment with bridge placement and hear what difference it makes when you shift the bridge around...
There are so many parameters that one has to take into account. Since you mention evenness of response, I suppose it matters a lot how much skin the bridge is sitting on right under the top Sa string, in some instruments the bridge can be very close to the rim of the waist, meaning the stringload makes it very stiff there compared to the more free-floating bass-side.
Another thing that I would like to know, which certainly has a lot of influence on the tone is how thick the bridge is at the feet and top. With your instruments, are they much the same in this respect? Can you give me measurements?

stringtester
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Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by stringtester » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:56 pm

Hi Martin1 and PCB,

The bridge on my Sarangi is 3,5mm thick at the top and 5.7mm thick at the feet.
What I found when I was experimenting with different bridges for dilruba and esradj
was that a thicker bridge gives a more dull sound and a thinner one gives a more
bright sound.

Martin2

martin spaink
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Re: recurrent problem in sarangi set-up

Post by martin spaink » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:18 pm

Hi Martin 2, what you say is consistent - within limits - of what is standard knowledge among luthiers when dealing with western string instruments, where the top of a bridge may be made a bit thinner to brighten the sound. The top part, not the feet!

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