dilruba/esraj fingering

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chrisitar
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dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby chrisitar » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:41 pm

How does the left finger change the pitch of the main string? Does the player push the string down so its touching the fret? What part of the finger is used?
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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby stringtester » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:26 am

No you don´t press the string down to the fret. The frets are more a visual help.
You must listen all the time when you are playing so you get the right tones.
There are different technics. I prefer to press the string to the side, with the fingertips.
It gives a more clear tone and better respons with the bow. Espessially in the higher
register. And you also tuch the frets a bit with the fingers so you have a feeling where
you are. But the traditional technic is to press the string from the top.

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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby david » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:43 pm

The frets are there to press, it just isn't always necessary. I find myself pressing the fret about 75% of the time.

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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby stringtester » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:30 pm

Chrisitar asked how much the left hand change the pitch.
Well, the more you press a string the higher will the tone be. So if the distans is long between
the string and the frets , the tone will be a bit higher when you press down to the fret.
That means that you must move the the finger a bit to get the same tone. But if the distans
is short the differens is very small. That can be difficult in beginning.
There are also different technics wich finger you use most. One use more the indexfinger.
another use more the middle finger.

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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby povster » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:43 am

Couldnl't one just move the frets to a slightly different position to get them in tune when pressed?
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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby stringtester » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:22 pm

Yes, if you want to press down the frets must be in exact right place.
What I mean is that if I also want to play the tone without pressing I must move
the finger a bit forward. otherwise the tone will be to low. The pressing high up the tone
a bit. Well, it´s not much. But if you never press down to the frets you dont need to know
that differens.

I think I missunderstod Chrisitars question.
My english is not the best.
The pitch of the main string is ofcourse the tone you get when you play open main string.
I think the left finger change the pitch very litle.

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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby DrKashyap » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:52 pm

As David Courtney has mentioned in his article, frets of dilruba/esraj are not serving the same purpose as those in sitar. In dilruba/esraj, they are approximate pointers, effective playing string length mainly determined by finger rather than the fret. With the climatic changes skin sags in, and all those fixed positioned frets differ from the position of correct notes, so this may be said as partially blind instrument. While in sitar the wooden tabli is comparatively much less affected by humidity, so frets once fixed, do not change the position of the correct notes to a great extent.

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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby david » Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:52 am

1)first let me say that the frets are moveable so in a well maintained dilruba the frets will be in correct tune and therefore can and should be used.

2)Earlier I said that I used the frets about 75% of the time; after some introspection I have decided that perhaps this number is on the high side.

Let me say that the frets should be used whenever appropriate. That would be any time that you need a sustained, unornamented note (provided that the note has a fret). Therefore the question then becomes how often does this situation arise. For a very beginner virtually all of the notes will be "kat" notes so it will be almost all the time. However the moment you start to add ornamentation, the frets get in your way. Therefore you start spending more of your time floating above the frets.

All I am trying to do is to dispel the myth that the frets are not used. This is always an acceptable technique, even when it is not a particularly interesting technique.

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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby stringtester » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:16 pm

It´s wrong to say that you never should press down to the frets. But it´s also wrong to
say that you should press down to the frets sometimes and another technic where you never
press down not is interesting. Different players develope different technics. It´s the same
with every instrument.
And the esradj and dilruba are not so evolved us the sarangi are.I think they can be
developed to fullbodied solo consert instruments like sarangi or sitar.

When I started to play in the end of seventies I began with sitar. After some years I went
over to esradj. In the begining I pressed down the string to the frets us you do when
playing sitar. My teacher said that I should start to koncentrate on the bowing technic.
When my bowing became better I koncentrated also of left hand technic.
My teacher said that I gradually should play more without pressing down to the frets.

Around ten years ago I started to finger the string to the side instead. I found that it
gave a more clear and fullbodied tone. Also because I wanted to use a bit thicker strings.
The volume is bigger and the respons is better when useing that technic on thicker strings.
It´s a technic more close to sarangi.
The other technic, touching the string to the top of the string and sometimes pressing
down to the frets is more close to sitar. Useing that technic it´s better to use a bit
thinner strings.

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chrisitar
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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby chrisitar » Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:57 pm

So if the finger slides from one fret to the other while bowing the string, wouldn't the fret stop the meend from being seamless? I'm confused about how the note is changed without the aid of a fret. Does the left finger have a hard callous that rests on the string? For instance, if I am playing Bhairavi on the dilruba, I must play both Re but only one will have a fret. To play that note my finger would simply rest on the string but not push down since there is no fret for that note?
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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby stringtester » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:55 pm

If you place your finger exactly in the middle of the low Ma string, touch it very light and
play with the bow. Then you can hear the middle Ma harmonic tone. And if you then
press down, you can hear that the tone goes up. So you can´t have your Ma-fret under
that point of the string. It must be a bit behind that point. Press down to the Ma-fret
and tune the fret to the harmonic Ma(it´s allways exact). Play with the bow and lift up
the finger and you will hear the tone going down and be false. To get the right tone you
must move the finger forward to the harmonic Ma point on the string.
I think that moweing take some extra energi and ofcource the pressing also.
Well don´t be confuced and don´t think aboute it when you are playing. If you listening
all the time when you are playing and try to find the right tones you will find them at last
automatically.
Nice picture of you playing sitar.How can I place a picture there if I want?

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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby mizrable » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:59 pm

alot of good advice here!
one shouldnt just plow throughthe frets like sitar. but there should be some pressure on the left hand for tone. If there isnt one needs a bow with lots of tension. Some players play slightly under the tip of the index finger so that the tip gets to touch the fret but the string does not. Its kinda like walking a tight rope.
when I practice sapat i listen for my sur and my tone. With enough practice the hand learns where it needs to fret and with how much pressure as long as the bowing is consistent.

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Re: dilruba/esraj fingering

Postby stringtester » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:59 pm

Yes, if you finger to the top of the string,you need to press down a bit to get enough
volume. But if you instead finger the string to the side you vill have a good volume and
respons without any pressing. The middle Ma and high Sa vill be fingered very close to
the harmonic tones. And if you instead want to play the harmonic tone,you just touch
the string very light. The harmonic tone is very clear and bright. When raising up the
high Sa I often finnish with a long harmonic high Sa. You can play it with alot of strokes
without hearing when you change direktion with the bow. Especially if there is a good
respons from the sympathetic strings.
So if you never press down to the frets,you can move them a bit,so they come more close
to the harmonic tones. Then you also can feel them with your finger in right possision.
Playing this technic you maybe need to raise up the upper bridge a bit,so you have enough
place for your fingers when you play in the lower register. And if the main bridge is high,
so you can´t feel the frets when you play up to high Sa,you maybe need to make it a bit
lower. But it´s not nessecary and not so good on esradj wich don´t have any board where
the frets rest. The bridge can be to low.
You can also mix the to technics. You can play the traditional technic and sometime when
you want more clear meends or gamakis you start to finger the string to the side instead.
Especially in the higher register the tones will be more clear.


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