Tuning sympathetic strings on sarangi slightly sharp?

[peeceebee]

I've discovered that if I tune the tarafs and laraj on my sarangi consistently very slightly sharp from sa, with the playing strings tuned right on, the instrument has considerably more life than if they are all tuned precisely to sa. This is quite a pronounced effect, very obvious. Yet the overall tone of the instrument sounds in tune, the correctly-tuned playing strings dominate the pitch.

I wonder if this is common knowledge, or if anyone else has noticed this-

[naad_brahma]

I've heard this before too, but never used that method for tuning on any instrument. I'm wondering where are you plucking the strings? On any stringed instrument when it comes to sympathetics I pluck towards the tarab eyelet with my fingernail. If you pluck towards the middle of the string, and with anything more than a small amount of force, it sometimes gives the illusion of the string being flat or in some cases even sharp. This doesn't explain why tuning sharper works for you, but I'd be curious to see what results you had if you tuned that way. For all your sympathetics tune by plucking lightly near the tarab eyelet, or in the case of the upper strings near the bridge.
Also common practice in the violin world and something that would apply to most any bowed instrument. Never tune main strings by plucking, tune while you are bowing the string. If you tune by plucking and then bow the same string it will be sharp. I learned this trick at a fiddle camp and was surprised at the difference it makes. Just my 10 cents, but I'm sure others will chime in with ideas too.

[peeceebee]

Yes, I have noticed that, plucking the sympathetics in different ways will sound slightly different pitches, especially on the jivari strings. What I do is pluck them with a toothpick near the jivari bridge or eyelet in the direction which makes them seem the most flat, then tune THAT pitch a tiny bit sharp in relation to true sa to get the effect I'm referring to. Of course the playing strings need to be bowed for accurate pitch, which I tune before tackling the tarabs.

It seems counterintuitive that what I'm talking about should be the case, you'd think that having the strings tuned spot on would yield the best resonance. Perhaps it's something to do with the bowing pulling the string sharp? But it seems to be like that even with very soft, smooth bowing, at least on my instrument-

[ragamala]

It seems counterintuitive that what I'm talking about should be the case, you'd think that having the strings tuned spot on would yield the best resonance. Perhaps it's something to do with the bowing pulling the string sharp? But it seems to be like that even with very soft, smooth bowing, at least on my instrument-

An interesting question.

Firstly, I'd say that this is not connected with the bowing. The bowing, even if applied hard, should set off the fundamental note of the playing string, and by transference the matching fundamental note of the appropriate sympathetic. And I don't think it matters whether you use a pick, or a nail, as I do, to pluck the string.

It's really down to the physics of a plucked string, and harmonics. I don't pretend to have a full grasp of this, but I'll try and explain how I understand it.

It's fairly easy to find by experiment that the whole tone of a plucked sympathetic changes depending on where you pluck it. Also this is clearly demonstarted on the main playing strings. Even though the fundamental frequency of the string does not change - the physics - which is essentially dependent on string length, mass and tension.

Plucked in the centre the string will sound very different from the same string plucked at the end. If plucked dead centre this is because half the harmonics, the even harmonics, are missing. If plucked very near the end the string the whole load of extra harmonics will make the string sound brighter, and enough for us to perceive the string as tuned to a higher pitch than it actually is (ie exactly the same as when we pluck in the middle, when it is a lot duller - but NOT flatter). Mainly because the funadmental is hidden by all those bright sounding higher harmonics. This effect is even more apparent on the sympathetics if you pluck close to the jawari, this introduces a whole host of extra confusing bright overtones.

This I think explains what you are finding. You're not actually tuning to a higher pitch, but you've got used to your ear thinking you are.

I have always thought the best place to pluck a sympathetic is somewhere near the centre of the string, certainly between the centre and about a third of the way along. This should apply to any sympathetics, including eg sitar, and also, significantly, tanpura. I actually believe it is a mistake to pluck near the end of the string, whichever end.

But whichever point you pluck at, on the sarangi the acid test is whether the string resonates to the bowed note. The more it does, the better you have got the fundamental note of the sympathetic right.

I'd also say that although the coarse tuning of the playing strings can be done by plucking the fine tuning has definitely to be done by bowing.

[david]

This makes sense.

In theory the harmonics of a string with a fundamental frequency of f, should have a harmonic structure with overtones at 2f, 3f, 4f, 5f, etc. However in practice the distance always seems to be greater than this simple two-to-one relationship. I have been told that this enharmonic quality derives from the stiffness of the string.

There have always been practical consequences to this enharmonic quality. For instance it is a common habit among piano tuners to slightly stretch the octave. In theory, this should sound awkward, but it actually sounds more in tune because it matches the "stretching" of the harmonic structure of the strings.

I presume that the sarangi tuning that you propose sounds more natural and vibrant due to this same phenomenon.

Peace

David Courtney

[peeceebee]

Thanks you for your comments.

Ragamala, I agree that certainly the bottom line is to have the resonant strings tuned for maximum responsiveness, however you go about it- but I think the phenomena may go beyond simply that picking the string is yielding a false pitch, although that can certainly be observed as you say.

Especially on the laraj, which produces a quite coherent pitch (at least on my instrument), the most responsive tuning is clearly slightly sharp, as determined by any picking method, including picking a third of the way along the string, etc. With the jivaris of course it is slightly ambiguous to hear the pitch from plucking, as a range of pitches can be heard with different plucking methods amidst all the buzzing (I have my jivaris set for a very heavyhanded effect, which I like), but they too seem best when a little sharp from whatever is the flattest picking method, with of course responsiveness to the laraj being the guide. But the laraj seems to tune the responsiveness of the entire instrument most powerfully, responding as it does to not just the fundamental sa, but also to the range of its harmonics from the other primary notes in the scale-

At any rate, whatever is going on, I'm glad to have noticed this phenomena, as I can now consistently get maximum life from my sarangi, whereas previously there was sometimes a mysterious sluggishness in the responsiveness, even when I had tuned carefully to get everything right on. As this seems so obvious an effect once I noticed it, I wondered if this was common knowledge among more experienced sarangi players, which is why I brought it up here.

And of course, whatever gets maximum responsiveness is the point, however one gets there...

[ragamala]

Hello David, thanks for the input on this.

If inharmonicity comes into this at all (and this is far more relevant at the higher tension of metal strings as in the piano, and the tuning of strings octaves apart, plus the equal temperament difficulty etc) then this is all the more reason to attune the ear to the appearance of the fundamental note and NOT be sidetracked by abnormal focus on the higher harmonics. Inharmonicity if present will be present in all vibrations of a string, wherever it is plucked. So I can't see this as the significant factor.

I think we should look to the tuning of the tanpura, where no-one would advocate the plucking of the string for any purpose near the nut or jawari? The pluck positioning is by far the most important practical factor.

peeceebee -

Thanks for the additonal post, giving more cause for thought.

As we agree that whatever you do the main thing is to have a good sympathetic response to the playing string, it is maybe not possible to take this furth er without resorting to electronic means of measuring pitches.

Personally I have never thought it necessary to use electronic tuner etc to check the "accuracy" of my tuning, and have relied on myown ear. I guess that's what we all should do at the end of the day. So I can't myself do any experiments to pursue this.

I remember from earlier posts you have been learning sarangi for some months - does your teacher have any input on this?

Best
Alan

[ragamala]

peeceebee

Another and entirely different thought comes to me on this.

Have you experimented with different tunings, I mean actual pitch of sa? And does this best result of "sharp" tuning of taraf happen whether you are tuned to say western D or E?

Life can come into an instrument through its own natural resonance.

[martin spaink]

Thank you RagaMala for your excellent comments, which I fully endorse. I have sat with many musicians while tuning up and have had multiple occasions to be surprised to see a lot of them tune tarabs by plucking close to the eyelets. For the same reasons as Alan described above I never felt inclined to do so, but instead developed a homegrown instrument, i.e. my right hand pinky nail, apart from having tried a variety of home-made picks. Eventually a re-worked bit of plastic with a polished tip and a bit of mass behind it, for lack thereof exit toothpicks, worked best in combination with the nail. I tune to a recorded tanpura, or, failing that, to the resonance of the laraj and the harmonic relation with the other svaras already in tune. Then, once finished (Deo gratias) when I pluck the laraj where it sounds good, see above, slowly the 'buzz' works itself through the instrument so for a brief moment its like a bee-hive in fine-tuned resonance. The whole set-up is able to bloom in sympathetic resonance, ready at a tickle, so to say, which allows the player to play with minute nuances of bowing and phrasing while keeping a sustained sound. So the more sensitively tuned, the less energy is needed as input, but the color of the resonance will change according to which octave you play in and bowing dynamics. The process of tuning and playing with sympathetic strings represents not only practical musicanship, a variety of akouphenomena and scientific & intuitive wisdom of how sounds manifest and inter-relate are involved that can be studied from many angles. On a symbolic level, it supplies a model of understanding higher order relations, similar as how we little humans wrestle with the main playing strings trying to win favour with the celestial choir of eternal Nada Brahma, it's mythical, yet can be evoked in the here and now.

On the other hand I can see that plucking tarabs close to the eyelets (maybe most specificly sarod and sarangi?) allows a blind man's protocol, you can do it by feel and blindly find the next string up or down, so it will be found very practical in this sense.
Also, a lot of experience may allow close-to -the-eyelet-pluckers-while-tuning-tarabs to get their strings merging in heaven nevertheless, but it's not for me. Still, one should be careful not to overpluck , as then the tone will be a bit too high initiallly.

[DrKashyap]

Some broken pieces of observation from my side

1. sympathetics are not meant to be plucked to get their response but as a secondary effect transmitted thro the gut-> main bridge -> bridge legs -> skin -> activating the sympathetic matching to its vibrating frequency thro main bridge.

2. However in practice they need to tuned by plucking only but they have to be verified by subsequent bowing.

3. So for every experienced sarangi player, there is a different format of plucking/tuning which gives him the best sympathetic response while bowing. So onlooker may find that the person is not properly tuning it.

4. Given a fixed point of plucking, theoretically it can be done to & fro or sideways. Both has different response. In practice, it is always somewhat oblique being more near to sideways.

5.Thaat & pathari strings have almost same response but jiwari sympathetics pose a different issue due to changing node at upper end depending on the amplitude of vibrating string.

6. Sympathetic response is definitely different for jiwari strings/laraj when sarangi is made upright from lying down position.

7. Hence after laraj, the jiwari strings are set for tuning, then pathari/thaat sets are tuned in such a way that they stimulate jiwari strings. However case may be little difficult for those who keep their jiwari closed.

8. for the playing guts, they are essentially made precise on the basis of bowing output only.

9. For the beginners, the pitch could be different in pull v/s push bow, which i have discussed earlier in this forum.

[DrKashyap]

..forgot to add one point that

Gut tuning can also sound different with different players due to difference in bowing pressure/techniques..