How many repetitions required to build muscle memory?

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pbercker
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How many repetitions required to build muscle memory?

Postby pbercker » Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:13 pm

I've been reading a fascinating article on "MOTOR LEARNING IN SPORT" since many principles there can apply to learning a musical instrument, especially in relation to developing so-called muscle memory (whereby various movements become automatic and very fast once initiated because the motor program is not connected to a feedback system which slows it down.) But how long does it take to develop these automatic motor programs? One possible answer below:


Very subtle kinesthetic sensations of the player are combined with verbal and sensory information. The level of the movement technique's applicability in a competitive environment is high. The motor programme is adapted to the player's abilities and characteristics and involves a high level of anticipation of movement and the possibility of correction. In addition to reliability and constancy, such a motor programme can easily be adapted to various unpredictable external and internal circumstances. The player may execute the technique correctly despite some "distracting noises"
such as psychological pressure, physical or psychological fatigue, competitive stress, wind, bad weather and the like. If the athlete's technique cannot adapt to such changes, it is completely useless. Therefore, methodology includes the execution of movements under difficult and changeable circumstances, constant control and correction. A high level of movement coordination has to be achieved through a flexible programme that adapts to external and internal changes. Only this kind of technique guarantees that the set goals will be achieved. Experts have established that it takes from 40,000 to 50,000 repetitions of a certain motor task to achieve the complete stabilisation and automation of one's technique (tennis, skiing, golf). In this phase the method of practising the technique turns into a "training match" in which the simulation of competition circumstances and tactics is aimed at achieving the desired result.


http://facta.junis.ni.ac.rs/pe/pe2004/pe2004-05.pdf


Just to try to put those numbers in perspective, if a particular procedure takes a full minute to execute (say a kaida with 6 paltas), well then 50,000 minutes = 833 hours = roughly 3 years at 1 hr/day and 6 days/week.

This actually sounds more or less in the ball park to become acceptably proficient (but short of complete mastery I think) with a kaida and some paltas.



Pascal
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.

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va4leo
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Re: How many repetitions required to build muscle memory?

Postby va4leo » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:03 pm

pbercker wrote:Just to try to put those numbers in perspective, if a particular procedure takes a full minute to execute (say a kaida with 6 paltas), well then 50,000 minutes = 833 hours = roughly 3 years at 1 hr/day and 6 days/week.

This actually sounds more or less in the ball park to become acceptably proficient (but short of complete mastery I think) with a kaida and some paltas.
Pascal


....or a month and a bit in a Professional Tabla player's life! (17hours a day for 49 days). Also...that doesn't account for the increase in proficiency, and hence speed as you progress though the 49 days. =D
-Vicknesh

pbercker
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Re: How many repetitions required to build muscle memory?

Postby pbercker » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:15 pm

va4leo wrote:
pbercker wrote:Just to try to put those numbers in perspective, if a particular procedure takes a full minute to execute (say a kaida with 6 paltas), well then 50,000 minutes = 833 hours = roughly 3 years at 1 hr/day and 6 days/week.

This actually sounds more or less in the ball park to become acceptably proficient (but short of complete mastery I think) with a kaida and some paltas.
Pascal


....or a month and a bit in a Professional Tabla player's life! (17hours a day for 49 days). Also...that doesn't account for the increase in proficiency, and hence speed as you progress though the 49 days. =D


My tabla union won't let me do more than 8 hours a day!


PB
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.

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va4leo
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Re: How many repetitions required to build muscle memory?

Postby va4leo » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:19 am

That just became 100 days! :P
-Vicknesh

pbercker
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Re: How many repetitions required to build muscle memory?

Postby pbercker » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:28 am

va4leo wrote:That just became 100 days! :P


I feel like I've just been sentenced to serve extra time for bad behavior!


PB
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.

pbercker
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Re: How many repetitions required to build muscle memory?

Postby pbercker » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:29 am

pbercker wrote:Just to try to put those numbers in perspective, if a particular procedure takes a full minute to execute (say a kaida with 6 paltas), well then 50,000 minutes = 833 hours = roughly 3 years at 1 hr/day and 6 days/week.

This actually sounds more or less in the ball park to become acceptably proficient (but short of complete mastery I think) with a kaida and some paltas.

Pascal


A bit more reading on the subject shows that I may be making an unwarranted assumption in back-of-the-envelop calculations above. It appears that a full one minute sequence is too long to repeat with respect to building muscle memory, or at least very inefficient. The better approach apparently is to break down this one minute sequence into much smaller chunks lasting a few seconds only, say 5-10 seconds at most. The general idea is to try to build smaller motor programs lasting 5-10 seconds each and the one minute sequence which was the goal is simply the result of consciously chaining the smaller motor programs in the right sequence.


Pascal
My opinion given without any warranties, expressed or implied, that it's even relevant. It would be folly to rely on my opinion without seeking more professional tabla advice. If you are suffering from a tabla condition, seek immediate attention.

dhatitdha
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Re: How many repetitions required to build muscle memory?

Postby dhatitdha » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:59 am

Agree with Pascal, just try to expert small phrases & then combine them.

I remember, in one of interview, Pt. Yogesh Samsi shared that in the beginning of his learning Ut Allarakha has taught Kaidas of TiTa for 4-5 years & nothing else.

profpandit
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Re: How many repetitions required to build muscle memory?

Postby profpandit » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:27 am

according to unconfirmed reports
the percussion research wing of the Sangeet Research Academy (SRA)
renowned hindustani music research institute, established at Calcutta
has determined, based mostly on historical recods and word of mouth evidence
that the knowledge of muscle memory formation in tabla practice
has been encoded in the term "chillaa"
which means you have to practice for forty days without any breaks
how many hours per day is not clarified
but assuming that is a secondary factor, this is where the state of the art stands
in today's context, this seems a little unrealistic
but I guess we have to adapt the theory to the practice


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