Need help identifying kaida

Discussions about the Indian hand-drums known as tabla.

Moderators: povster, s1owpoke, cabernethy, coughcapkittykat

amateurtablaplayer
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:15 pm

Need help identifying kaida

Postby amateurtablaplayer » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:21 pm

I heard a lot of great masters playing this kaida just wondering the gharana and the composer of this kaida
Dati da s Dati Gina tina Gina da ti da kardit dagena ke dati Gina tina
Kittak di Kittak di Kittak ta tirkittak ta tirkittak
Tirkittak ta tirkitt dati dagena dati dagena

Benarsidass
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:17 am

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby Benarsidass » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:59 pm

Are you sure this is a kaida? Sounds like some Dilli gats I've heard. Any performances we could listen to?

amateurtablaplayer
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby amateurtablaplayer » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:12 am

maybe its a gat kaida or some sort of chalan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrynUyeeHi0

it starts around the 49 min mark

amateurtablaplayer
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby amateurtablaplayer » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:13 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3k9kYdxoz0
here is zakir ji teaching it

Benarsidass
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:17 am

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby Benarsidass » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:55 am

That's a Farrukhabad chalan. I believe this was made famous by Thirakwa Khansaheb. I've never learned it but Chhotelal Misra published this version in his book Tal Prabandh:

dhatidha– dhatigena dhinnagena dhatidha–

kradhe–na ghenatete dhatigena tinnakena

tin-kitataka tin-kitataka ta–tirakitataka ta–tirakitataka

tirakitatakata– tirakita,dhage dhatidhage tinnakina

khali...

The last line is played a bit differently by Anindo:

tirakitatakata– tirakita,dhati dhagenadha tidhagena
Last edited by Benarsidass on Wed Jul 13, 2016 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

evening84
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:23 pm
Location: Ottawa
Contact:

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby evening84 » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:10 pm

Benarsidass wrote: ... in his book Tal Prabandh ....

Sorry for the tangent, can we have some more information on this book ?
Just a summary/table of contents would suffice. I assume it is in Hindi.
Thanks in advance.
My karma ran over your dogma
http://evening84.blogspot.com/

Benarsidass
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:17 am

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby Benarsidass » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:23 pm

Tal Prabandh - ताल प्रबन्ध
Pandit Chhotelal Misra
Kanishka Publishers, New Delhi 2006

The book is in Hindi and is a pretty dense theory book. It was originally part of Tabla Granth, his advanced book of compositions (also in Hindi), but ended up being broken into two books due to the length.

PM me if you're interested in a copy of the table of contents (and if you read Hindi). There's quite a bit to summarize.

Bhagi
Posts: 271
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:04 pm

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby Bhagi » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:18 pm

As others have said, it is a Farrukhabad chalan. I've heard lots of people play it. In Bhai Gaitonde's CD Tabla, it is track 12. Also U Nizamuddin plays it on the AIM solo CD as a tukda.
"Except for ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, War Has Never Solved Anything."

Protest Warrior sign.

Benarsidass
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:17 am

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby Benarsidass » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:54 am

Just noticed that this composition is given in Wegner's Vintage Tabla Repertoire as a Kinaar Gat and attributed to Ahmedjan Thirakwa. Since this is Nikhil Ghosh's material (a student of Thirakwa) I presume that's what Thirakwa called it. Anindo I know teaches this as a chalan.

Aadil
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:03 pm

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby Aadil » Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:30 pm

Farrukhabad chalan, as mentioned by others. Anindo ji does teach this as benarsidas mentions. A slight variation indicated below-

dhatidha– dhatigena dhinnagena dhatidha–
kradhe–na ghenatete dhatigena tinnakena *(tinnakitataka)
tin-kitataka tin-kitataka ta–tirakitataka ta–tirakitataka
tirakitatakata– tirakita,dhage dhatidhage tinnakina
khali...

There is a video of Pt Vaibhav Nageshkar playing this right at the start of the video, will look for it.

ajrara
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby ajrara » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:15 pm

could anyone please explain what is the difference between chalan and gat?

and what distinguishes this particular composition as a chalan rather than a gat?

Benarsidass
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:17 am

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby Benarsidass » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:31 pm

Dangerous question;)

Gat and chalan are two of the most poorly defined forms in classical tabla. “Chalna” means to move, walk, or flow in Hindi, and likely comes from Kathak, at least in some traditions. The chalan in tabla seems to have a very broad meaning, sometimes used to define a form and other times used very loosely to mean a division-based groove. Sadanand Naimpalli uses chalan in this way in his books. He calls it “a catchy sequence of bols, which by itself can be played like a Kaida or Laggi.”

In Benares, chalan is sometimes another name for tekha prakar (tekha palta). And if you listen to a standard theka prakar groove, it’s very dance-like.

Interestingly, most of the Farrukhabad chalans I’ve heard are not like this famous chalan here. They are simpler groove-based kayda or laggi-like pieces that have funky, sometimes unusual, divisions. And they are often used to introduce a rela with the same division. This is something players in all gharanas seem to do, but sometimes with different names. In Benares it’s bant-to-rela.

Here’s an example of Nayan Ghosh playing this kind of chalan-to-rela (though I don’t know for sure that’s what he calls it). He plays some variations of the groove but locks into it around the 1:00 mark before going into the rela:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHHqanKvB3k

Gats on the other hand are often characterized by strong contrast in bols. So one line will be very different from the next (often the opposite of a groove). That’s why this famous chalan here sounds like a gat to me, and it was interesting to find that Thirakwa called it a kinaar gat, which might be another term for Dilli gat, or Dilli-style gat, since the Dilli style is sometimes referred to as kinaar baj.

This is just another baffling area of tabla terminology. It’s best to try and get comfortable with lots of different terms for the same forms, and lots of different forms for the same term. It’s an oral tradition.

ajrara
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:07 pm

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby ajrara » Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:40 pm

Benarsidass wrote:Dangerous question;)

Gat and chalan are two of the most poorly defined forms in classical tabla. “Chalna” means to move, walk, or flow in Hindi, and likely comes from Kathak, at least in some traditions. The chalan in tabla seems to have a very broad meaning, sometimes used to define a form and other times used very loosely to mean a division-based groove. Sadanand Naimpalli uses chalan in this way in his books. He calls it “a catchy sequence of bols, which by itself can be played like a Kaida or Laggi.”

In Benares, chalan is sometimes another name for tekha prakar (tekha palta). And if you listen to a standard theka prakar groove, it’s very dance-like.

Interestingly, most of the Farrukhabad chalans I’ve heard are not like this famous chalan here. They are simpler groove-based kayda or laggi-like pieces that have funky, sometimes unusual, divisions. And they are often used to introduce a rela with the same division. This is something players in all gharanas seem to do, but sometimes with different names. In Benares it’s bant-to-rela.

Here’s an example of Nayan Ghosh playing this kind of chalan-to-rela (though I don’t know for sure that’s what he calls it). He plays some variations of the groove but locks into it around the 1:00 mark before going into the rela:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHHqanKvB3k

Gats on the other hand are often characterized by strong contrast in bols. So one line will be very different from the next (often the opposite of a groove). That’s why this famous chalan here sounds like a gat to me, and it was interesting to find that Thirakwa called it a kinaar gat, which might be another term for Dilli gat, or Dilli-style gat, since the Dilli style is sometimes referred to as kinaar baj.

This is just another baffling area of tabla terminology. It’s best to try and get comfortable with lots of different terms for the same forms, and lots of different forms for the same term. It’s an oral tradition.


Thank you for your considered and insightful response.

To me, this composition has all the components associated with gat. There seems to be two distinct parts to this composition which is common to gat and Chalan usually encompasses its musical idea into just one phrase.

I have never come across a chalan which is as extensive as this.
According to Sudhir Mainkarji, Chalan precedes Rela or Rau. This composition has no relationship to either of these.

As stated here, there may be different terminology associated with different gharanas, or is it possible that the terminology has changed over time?

Gat also means 'movement' according to Pandit Arvind Mulgoankar, which is quite near to the definition of Chalan. Though I think these translations could be more refined and precise.

Benarsidass
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:17 am

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby Benarsidass » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:19 pm

Yes I've heard of gat given the meaning of "movement." It's from gati (गति) in Hindi. Sudhir Saxena makes that connection in his book The Art of Tabla Rhythm. But most people give it the more common meaning of "composition" or "form", which seems to be the most common usage in classical music and dance (not only tabla).

Here's a Dilli gat from Chhotelal Misra's Tabla Granth. Lines 3 and 4 are exactly the same as the chalan as played by Andindo. I love this gat, by the way. Everything is on the kinar (except for titi ti):

dha dhatigina dha ––dhati
dhaginadha tidhagina dhatidhage dhinnagina
titi ti-kitataka nana na-kitataka
tirakitatakata– tirakitadhati dhaginadha tidhagina
ta tatikina ta ––tati
takinata titakina tatitake tinnakina
titi ti-kitataka nana na-kitataka
tirakitatakata– tirakitadhati dhaginadha tidhagina
Last edited by Benarsidass on Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aadil
Posts: 60
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:03 pm

Re: Need help identifying kaida

Postby Aadil » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:28 pm

Benarsidass wrote:Dangerous question;)
That’s why this famous chalan here sounds like a gat to me, and it was interesting to find that Thirakwa called it a kinaar gat, which might be another term for Dilli gat, or Dilli-style gat, since the Dilli style is sometimes referred to as kinaar baj.


Benarsidass, do you mean the original gat/chalan posted by amateurtablaplayer was called kinaar gat by Thirakwa? Surprised, since I learnt to play it on the sur i.e on the edge of the syahi, in the typical farrukhabad style.

Check out Pt Vaibhav Nageshkar employing the tin and dha on sur to a good effect here -- https://youtu.be/btq-6l8Q8fY
i.e the tin in kitatakatin and the Dhaa in the ending DhatiDhaGena.


Return to “TABLA”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests